What could DRK have learned from FFXI?

[Ultimatecalibur]

P.S. And before anybody brings it up, although the kanji for ma (魔) appears in mahou (魔法), the darker connotations of ma do not carry over to mahou as mahou is very specific in being the Japanese idea of "Western magic" which doesn't have any good/bad/dark/light connotations inherent to it.

I wouldn't say there their are no dark connotations but most of those connotations are suppressed by the positive connotations of Method/Law (法).

[TouchandFeel]

I wouldn't say there their are no dark connotations but most of those connotations are suppressed by the positive connotations of Method/Law (法).

Not exactly because the kanji and their individual meanings don't really translate perfectly over in the case of certain words like mahou (魔法) because it is intended to specifically express a Western idea of something. So two kanji were chosen that sort of convey the idea and were put together, supernatural+law/structure of (more contextually structure of in this case) and figured that was close to the idea of Western magic with its spells and whatnot. There really isn't more depth or intricacy to it than that. Mahou is just simply the idea of Western magic that they fit kanji to in order to create a word to use for it. This process isn't uncommon in Japanese when integrating foreign ideas or concepts into the language.

Also, hou (法) doesn't really carry the same positive connotations as the Western ideas of law, order, etc. It just is, neither positive or negative, in the sense that "the order of things" can be both good and bad depending on context and association.

[Reynhart]

Also just a note, the kanji version of the name is used/referenced here and there for Makenshi as well (魔 剣士) and not just the Romaji (まけんし).

That's the exact same 魔 that you found in 魔道士 which is the word used for Black Mage, White Mage, etc...In the context of Final Fantasy III, there is no sign of any "scary" connotation, especially if you consider that the "Magic Knight" used White Magic back then.

Basically, what is now called "Dark Knight" in FFIII DS, the only official translation, is a complete different job from the NES version (Probably because the "Magic Knight" was redundant with the Knight and the new Freelancer). So one can't really use that version to claim that not all past "Dark Knight" used their HP to deal damage.

[TouchandFeel]

snip

Mahou (魔法) and madou (魔道) are basically the same word within the context of usage in Japanese, meaning magic in a Western sense, you just rarely if ever see madou (魔道) used by itself and you rarely if ever see mahoushi (魔法士) used for mage/magician/wizard and instead see madoushi (魔道士). It's just an example of the common quirk in Japanese where two or more words mean exactly the same thing even though they have different parts, and kanji, making them up and each is used instead of the others depending on context or situation.

So no, that fact that ma (魔) is in madoushi (魔道士) has as much connotative weight as it appearing in mahou (魔法), which is virtually none for the exact same reason of it expressing a very specific concept of the Western idea of magic.

If one wants to argue that the Makenshi (魔剣士) of FF3 should not be included in an argument of "what were Dark Knight classic abilities" because it was a proto-Dark Knight and therefore the truly formative elements hadn't been established yet, that is fine.
But, if we are talking about the Japanese names, the words that are used for them , the context within the kanji and how that then relates to the words/names and how best to try to capture that in an English translation, I stand by what I have said.

Also, the last time this exact topic came up I decided to sanity-check myself and ran it by an immediate family member that is a native Japanese speaker with multiple degrees in language and literature, years of working as a professional English/Japanese translator and having taught Japanese at a college level. They basically told me what I have said here in regards to the meaning of the words and how the context of the kanji does and doesn't carry over to the words in regards to the whole ma (魔) in makenshi ((魔 剣士) and mahou (魔法) topic. I think I'll take their word on it.

[Auron_Wolf]

I love how this thread has pass from “I want this version of this class I like, to fit in this game” to “for me this a tank” then get a FFIV discussion in the middle, and then jump to kanji translation xD.

@TouchandFeel: I have a friend living in japan, working as a teacher of Spanish, and I remember having quite long conversations when I send him material for translation, to see how to fit for their lessons jeje, you really have a love for language or a lot of patient for this type of themes.

Basically, what is now called "Dark Knight" in FFIII DS, the only official translation, is a complete different job from the NES version (Probably because the "Magic Knight" was redundant with the Knight and the new Freelancer). So one can't really use that version to claim that not all past "Dark Knight" used their HP to deal damage.

I completely agree with you in this point, and that’s why I think to say “this class is defined by this set of parameters” is attached to each one personal gaming experience.

As a side note I don’t think we see any changes with the battle system in any class, than go more far than this dull thing we have now, since as far I have read and seen, the dev team found their “ideal formula” in this expansion .

[kazzel120]

Cid is a swordsaint and Gafgarion "dark knight" later was translated into Fellknight. Obviously so that SE could make the difference. They also both happen to be NPC's that you don't keep in your party. Also, in the IV remake, darkness takes 10% of your health to double your attack for 3 turns. So...yeah it does take damage to increase damage.

Any how, I'm done arguing with you as you've not brought any counter argument or real counter evidence to prove your point - which is that Dark Knight is "tanky".

Hmm i didn't know that you couldn't keep Cid take his Excalibur then bench him. But yeah i must have played another version of Tactics that you didn't.

I have proved exactly what i have stated there's 4 main title Dark Knights all use heavy armor all use swords all fight in the front lines all have high HP only 2 of them have ever used hp to do damage XI's DRK and DRK Cecil. The latters who's skill was so weak his normal attacks hit harder. And im not referring to the DS remake either.

Everyone has it in their head that DRK has "always sacrificed hp to do more damage" in every game when this is not even close to truth. Get over it XIV DRK isn't ds Cecil and xi drk. Its a tank and the job story actually tells you why they call themselves Dark Knights.

[Cabalabob]

Everyone has it in their head that DRK has "always sacrificed hp to do more damage" in every game when this is not even close to truth. Get over it XIV DRK isn't ds Cecil and xi drk. Its a tank and the job story actually tells you why they call themselves Dark Knights.

I’m sorry but wow. I had a good chuckle at people trying to argue classic DRK is a tank, but trying to argue that souleater/darkness is not their iconic ability? Try to say that to anyone who knows FF and the reaction will be “HAHAHAHAHA... wait you’re serious?”.

Basically every main line entry that has had drk except FF2 (abilities weren’t a thing) and the original version of FF3 (added in the remake) has given them souleater or darkness. DRK simply has not had as many main line appearances as other jobs, not appearing in 5 or 9. If you expand the criteria it appears a lot more frequently, X-2, tactics-WoTL, ff-explorers, bravely default and here’s the description of the dark knight job from ff record keeper “A warrior who wields the power of darkness. Sacrificing his own life force to crush his enemies. The dark knight excels in an offensive role”.

[Lyth]

...

Actually, anyone who knows Final Fantasy also knows that every game is different. The series is held together by a loose series of homages and references. Ragnarok is a spaceship. Shiva is a motorcycle. The Lucavi are espers. Paladins cast offensive magic. Ifrit takes damage from fire spells. Dark Knight attacks are fuelled by MP as a representation of their life-force instead of HP.

This seems like a strange place to bring out your pitchfork. But that's the nice thing about Final Fantasy. If you don't like how things are done in one game, there are plenty of alternatives.

That it's that way ---------------------------------------->

I think this needs a longer arrow.

[Seku]

Actually, anyone who knows Final Fantasy also knows that every game is different. The series is held together by a loose series of homages and references. Ragnarok is a spaceship. Shiva is a motorcycle. The Lucavi are espers. Paladins cast offensive magic. Ifrit takes damage from fire spells. Dark Knight attacks are fuelled by MP as a representation of their life-force instead of HP.

This seems like a strange place to bring out your pitchfork. But that's the nice thing about Final Fantasy. If you don't like how things are done in one game, there are plenty of alternatives.


I think this needs a longer arrow.

Ragnarok is different in a lot of games.
Shiva may have been made into a motorcycle, but she kept the fact that she uses ice as a main method of attack. They also didn't try to make her into a tank.
Lucavi being espers? Not sure what this is suppose to mean. In every new game Summons are named something new.
Paladin's are known for having access to white magic in general. Of Their main thing is being a warrior with white magic offensive included. The main thing is that their not a DPS with 0 curing ability.

So no, this is a normal place for people that have been fans of the job to pull out their pitchfork.

Even going by loose references, FF14's Dark Knight doesn't even do a good job at that.

[kazzel120]

I’m sorry but wow. I had a good chuckle at people trying to argue classic DRK is a tank, but trying to argue that souleater/darkness is not their iconic ability? Try to say that to anyone who knows FF and the reaction will be “HAHAHAHAHA... wait you’re serious?”.

Basically every main line entry that has had drk except FF2 (abilities weren’t a thing) and the original version of FF3 (added in the remake) has given them souleater or darkness. DRK simply has not had as many main line appearances as other jobs, not appearing in 5 or 9. If you expand the criteria it appears a lot more frequently, X-2, tactics-WoTL, ff-explorers, bravely default and here’s the description of the dark knight job from ff record keeper “A warrior who wields the power of darkness. Sacrificing his own life force to crush his enemies. The dark knight excels in an offensive role”.

Did you miss the part where i said XIV DRK is a tank? XIV DRK i said it again. And to get over it 4 years people still cry about DRK being a tank in XIV.