I Miss Cross-Class Skills

[galbsadi]

First off...this isn't a petition to bring them back. I understand why they're gone, and for new players, it actually makes sense to have role actions that make the game easier for them to learn, etc. It's a lot easier to have all tanks learn 'Rampart' at lv8 rather than needing to specifically level up GLD for it, for example, and it's certainly a QoL improvement to not need to level CNJ so your PLD could use Stoneskin (although I do miss stoneskin, it was cool).

Rather...I just remember it being really neat how we had them, and am slightly nostalgic for them.

(Or, if you're not a person who's been around forever, consider this an older gamer going 'I loved many parts of this game even back in 2.0'.)

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Most of them were useless. The ones that were useful were mandatory. It was a bad system

[D_C]

Most of them were useless. The ones that were useful were mandatory. It was a bad system

Yup. Thank the flippin’ Fury they removed the idea completely instead of tryin’ to improve it, that woulda been horrible.

Plus we got this GREAT new piece of shite instead. Which still had the same problem o’ crap for choice for a whole expansion. But luckily for us they realized they couldn’t create compellin’ choices for shite an’ sanded that down instead. Thanks for the flavorless plastic abilities Squeenix, yer the tops.

[YojimboM]

Most of them were useless. The ones that were useful were mandatory. It was a bad system

It was honestly pretty fascinating that for a lot of HW Bard's highest damage skill overall wasn't even a Bard skill.

[MsQi]

Most of them were useless. The ones that were useful were mandatory. It was a bad system

That's a non sequitur. You talk about bad ability choices, but conclude that the system was bad.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

That's a non sequitur. You talk about bad ability choices, but conclude that the system was bad.

A system can be bad when the sum of its parts are either mandatory or useless.

You could have the most varied and amazing cross class system available. It would still be a bad system when there were clear winners and losers in terms of skills available. Otherwise they'd just have to be ability glamour for appearance, which is equally lame.



Take tank choices for example. Provoke was a gladiator skill. You didn't get it on war unless you leveled gla to 22. This means, at endgame, there could be players who didn't have an essential skill for tanking. This is a bad system.

[Shurrikhan]

A system can be bad when the sum of its parts are either mandatory or useless.

Again, that's implementation, not system concept.

You could have the most varied and amazing cross class system available. It would still be a bad system when there were clear winners and losers in terms of skills available.

Then that wouldn't be the most varied or amazing implementation available. If it does not live up to the potential available to the concept, it is not the best available. It's very simple.

That your sword broke on the first strike makes it a poorly-made sword, not that all swords are poorly made.

Take tank choices for example. Provoke was a gladiator skill. You didn't get it on war unless you leveled gla to 22. This means, at endgame, there could be players who didn't have an essential skill for tanking. This is a bad system.

No; again, it's a bad choice of what to uniquely bind into that system, not an issue of the system itself.

Each tank could have as easily, from a system perspective, had their own version of a snap-enmity tool with unique advantages and disadvantages, each gained at level 22 (just as they already had in 1.2, where each was gained at level 14 but the tank with a toolkit that lent itself to AoE-pulling mobs had a tool which was weaker and AoE and the one that preferred to chain-kill single mobs at a time had a stronger but single-target one). The only controversial point necessary to the system is that players leveling their second tank could have taken their rewards from the previous and applied them at an earlier level if allowed by the "affinity level" tied to the skill or in situational replacement of their native tool (if caused to share a cooldown with their native version, which would usually make it an inferior choice to other cross-class skills if one had more skills at the time than slots available).

True, that didn't happen; the iteration was poor. But that is due to an oversight: they underestimated player dependence upon a threat-matching skill having come from 1.x, where there were no tank stances to absorb relative potency and tank pairs had to manage their threat through other means, including flat enmity CDs (Marauder's Provoke and, formerly, Barbaric Yalp and Gladiator's Flash and War Drums), flat enmity-shuffles (old GLA), and effects tied into mitigation CDs (GLA's Rampart and Sentinel). It is not a systemic issue.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Again, that's implementation, not system concept.


Then that wouldn't be the most varied or amazing implementation available. If it does not live up to the potential available to the concept, it is not the best available. It's very simple.

That your sword broke on the first strike makes it a poorly-made sword, not that all swords are poorly made.



No; again, it's a bad choice of what to uniquely bind into that system, not an issue of the system itself.

Each tank could have as easily, from a system perspective, had their own version of a snap-enmity tool with unique advantages and disadvantages, each gained at level 22 (just as they already had in 1.2, where each was gained at level 14 but the tank with a toolkit that lent itself to AoE-pulling mobs had a tool which was weaker and AoE and the one that preferred to chain-kill single mobs at a time had a stronger but single-target one). The only controversial point necessary to the system is that players leveling their second tank could have taken their rewards from the previous and applied them at an earlier level if allowed by the "affinity level" tied to the skill or in situational replacement of their native tool (if caused to share a cooldown with their native version, which would usually make it an inferior choice to other cross-class skills if one had more skills at the time than slots available).

True, that didn't happen; the iteration was poor. But that is due to an oversight: they underestimated player dependence upon a threat-matching skill having come from 1.x, where there were no tank stances to absorb relative potency and tank pairs had to manage their threat through other means, including flat enmity CDs (Marauder's Provoke and, formerly, Barbaric Yalp and Gladiator's Flash and War Drums), flat enmity-shuffles (old GLA), and effects tied into mitigation CDs (GLA's Rampart and Sentinel). It is not a systemic issue.

In that case, name ONE game with this type of system where the systems implementation isn't either broken or worthless due to one "spec" being better than the rest? If no ones been able to do it, its not an implementation issue, its a systemic one.

Cross class never would have worked properly. If you give all jobs access to all skills, it becomes a mess. If you limit them to certain skills and they are beneficial, those become required (which, funnily enough, role skills is where all the mandatory skills went. Huh)

[Shurrikhan]

Most of them were useless. The ones that were useful were mandatory. It was a bad system

It was a bad iteration. There's a difference. A bad coin-toss doesn't make 50-50 chances fundamentally stacked against you.

Present system: Not a single job has anything to do with each other. You are not a hero who has mastered various professions; you merely are each profession, separately. You slay gods on one and compete with squirrels on the next. Everything restarts from the level floor with zero accumulation.

Old System: Hey, you know that thing you learned that seems like it should still be applicable when using this other, similarly heavy and bladed weapon? Well, it is.

The only necessary component of that system was that you were encouraged to level more than one job. That was it. The rest -- how poor or strong your particular job's cross-class skills were -- is iteration.

[Vidu]

I think nostalgia is a good word for it and I'd advise you not to think to hard about... because each time I recall the good old times and spend more than 2 minutes thinking about it I'm internally screaming "OH MY GOD I'M SO GLAD THAT ITS OVER!!"

...okay, not that extreme, but in essence that.
After I recall how nice it was to have stoneskin and protect as paladin (and being able to raise people who died in the open world!), my thoughts drift to...
...absolutly having to level up THM to get swiftcast when playing as healer...
...the total need to pick up archer no matter what dps you played to get that damage-buff...
...having to get monk to level 42(!) to get mantra - something quite a few people I knew didnt bother to do...
...running into BLMs who only leveled their archer far enough for Raging Strikes, but not Quelling (the skill that reduces the aggro one would generate) - as a tank that was quite annoying...
...basically having to play jobs you didnt like, spend your time on those, only to support the job you did like.

Specially thinking about the last point there: In my mind that is/was a great thing! Having this system that supported that you went out and tried different jobs and didnt only stuck to your main! Great encouragment, specially when it suggested you try something different from your main-role (aka: healers trying a dps with thm/blm or a paladin trying to heal as conjurer)!
But when I look at it a bit closer, I begin to wonder if thats really such a great thing - being forced to level something you might be totally aware of you dont want to play. I knew I didnt want to play monk (still cant stand that job, I only got it to 70 two weeks before 5.0...) but I had to level it anyways, because my bard "needed" that mantra.

I understand your sentiment, because I feel the same - for 2 minutes, then my memory really kicks in and I'm like "oooh... right, thats why this is gone. Yeah. Yeah, I like that its gone. Good job, SE! This is much better now!"
...so... better not think to much about it if you want that nostalgia to stay...