All Final Boss origins (spoilers obviously)

[Lambdafish]

So I just realised something today. With exception of Shinryu, every single final boss is final fantasy VII inspired (even 1.0). This might seem like a coincidence, but we are now 5 final bosses in, and 4/5 are from FFVII, has anyone else noticed this trend?

To recap:
1.0: Nael - Deliberately inspired by Sephiroth (VIIth legion, meteor project, etc.)
2.0: Ultima Weapon - Not exclusive to VII, but VII is the original incarnation of this form.
3.0: Thordan - Knights of the Round, a FFVII summon
4.0: Shinryu - FFV
5.0: Hades - A FFVII summon

It just seems odd when you write it down, especially considering there are so many other great candidates (or maybe something original?).


Edit: I've since learned that Hades was also in FFIX as a secret boss, and in FFXI, so I guess it lowers this one - I'd still like to see something not from VII though.

[HumanNinjaToo]

Actually Ultima Weapon first appeared in FF6 as Atma Weapon, so original source would be FF6 not FF7. Knights of the Round is not FF7 exclusive. It appeared in Type-0 as a summon, as well as some lesser known FF iterations. Hades was also in FF5, FF9, and was a boss in an FF11 expansion; so neither is Hades exclusive to FF7.

It just seemed like you were getting at the idea of bosses being ripped solely from FF7, when in fact many of those characters appeared in other FF titles.

Even though I really enjoy FF lore in general, and I get a kick out of characters from some of my favorite FF games being brought to life again in FF14, I can see the need for original characters as well. It can't all be fan service I guess.

[Lambdafish]

Actually Ultima Weapon first appeared in FF6 as Atma Weapon, so original source would be FF6 not FF7. Knights of the Round is not FF7 exclusive. It appeared in Type-0 as a summon, as well as some lesser known FF iterations. Hades was also in FF5, FF9, and was a boss in an FF11 expansion; so neither is Hades exclusive to FF7.

It just seemed like you were getting at the idea of bosses being ripped solely from FF7, when in fact many of those characters appeared in other FF titles.

Even though I really enjoy FF lore in general, and I get a kick out of characters from some of my favorite FF games being brought to life again in FF14, I can see the need for original characters as well. It can't all be fan service I guess.

I did not know that Hades was in FFIX thanks for clarifying that, that does make me feel slightly better about it.

As for KotR being in Type 0, that is a spin-off game, and the only example I can think of. I doubt the dev team even looked at Type 0 when coming up with Thordan. On the topic of 2.0, look up FFVI's atma weapon, its nothing like the FFXIV ultima weapon (and was later referenced in the dungeon boss Ultima Beast), the FFXIV Ultima Weapon is based on the FFVII design.

My opinion is less that "they are just from FFVII" and more that "FFVII is the defining appearance of this entity, and likely the inspiration for the FFXIV incarnation".


I guess my frustration comes from loving Emet-Selch as a character, and then reducing his final battle to yet another FFVII reference (in my mind at least). Keep the same fight, keep the same design but omit the name Hades and call the boss Emet-Selch, that would make it so much better in my eyes.

[HumanNinjaToo]

My opinion is less that "they are just from FFVII" and more that "FFVII is the defining appearance of this entity, and likely the inspiration for the FFXIV incarnation".

Okay, I see that point. Maybe some of the dev team responsible for those things were big FF7 fans? Or I would like to think that while they were working those things out, they were taking inspiration from the fact that FF7 20 year anniversary was last year. So maybe this was their way of recognizing that anniversary since SE as a company really failed to do anything else exciting with that hallmark anniversary.

[Enkidoh]

Okay, I see that point. Maybe some of the dev team responsible for those things were big FF7 fans? Or I would like to think that while they were working those things out, they were taking inspiration from the fact that FF7 20 year anniversary was last year. So maybe this was their way of recognizing that anniversary since SE as a company really failed to do anything else exciting with that hallmark anniversary.

I've heard it mentioned that Yoshi's favourite FF game is indeed FFVII so maybe Lambdafish might be onto something....

But most likely it's probably just coincidence (also technically ARR's final boss wasn't the Ultima Weapon at all, but Lahabrea. And then you had the final ARR patch story final boss in the form of Vshap on the Steps of Faith. Then Heavensward's patch final boss against Ilberd on Baelsar's Wall... etc etc.).

[Nalien]

Actually Ultima Weapon first appeared in FF6 as Atma Weapon, so original source would be FF6 not FF7. Knights of the Round is not FF7 exclusive. It appeared in Type-0 as a summon, as well as some lesser known FF iterations. Hades was also in FF5, FF9, and was a boss in an FF11 expansion; so neither is Hades exclusive to FF7.

Ultima Weapon in XIV is clearly based off the same model as VII, I don't think anyone can possibly dispute that.
Knights of the Round originated from, and are largely famous because of, VII. The fight in XIV even references VIIs screen shatter effect, and largely kept to the order and attacks of the Knights.
Same with Hades, his first appearance in Final Fantasy was in VII; IX and XI came after VII so that's obvious. While V obviously came before VII, Hades never appeared in the original release of V, he was an optional boss of an entirely new secret dungeon in the Advanced release of V, which came out after VII.

Hades is arguably the weakest link, since he was an entirely forgettable summon in VII, and his later appearances in IX and XI are far more noteworthy, but still. I'd like to think this is intentional, given Yoshida has said VII was his favorite title in the franchise, and his premier to XIV was very VII based with Project Meteor and Nael van Darnus... Heck, to this day our MSQ quest marker is essentially the VII Meteor logo... While Stormblood broke the trend with Shinryu, it was still very VII based in its references towards the end... We had a (totally-not) Mako Cannon, the Resonant Project pods were very reminiscent of VIIs SOLDIER pods, the first boss of Ala Mhigo is the first boss of VII, Aulus might as well be Hojo, heck Zenos might as well be Sephiroth at this point (Garlemalds ultimate soldier forged from human experimentation, has a thing for Nippon Steel, long hair, died but didn't stay dead...), and technically he was the one piloting Shinryu in the finale of Stormblood...

That said, the writers take from the entire franchise. Even the finale of 1.0, which is widely regarded as one big VII love song, still takes from other titles. Project Meteor, for example, ends up being a bigger reference to IV IMHO; Red Moon in both games turns out to be artificial. IVs had the Lumarians in hibernation, XIVs has the Meracydians. In both games, Bahamut is encountered on the Red Moon... Just here the moon came to us... Honestly one thing I love about this game is finding all these little nods to the past games.

Emet as a character is nothing like the mindless summon of VII and is "his" own self contained character.. does his real name happen to be Hades and than he turns into a representation of such, yes.... but Hades was first released in FFV anyways

Well, I've already corrected the V point. Hades didn't appear in V until the Advanced rerelease in 2006, 9 years after VII was released. His debut in Final Fantasy was with VII.

Despite that though, I would say Shadowbringers finale is much more a reference to IX than VII. Tempest honestly felt like a City of the Ancients (VII) reference to me, though Amaurot as a conjured illusion of a city is clearly a Zanarkand reference? Which arguably makes Emet a Yu Yevon (I'm going off memory here, but maybe someone wants to do a side by side of the Yu Yevon boss and Hades final form? In my head they have a striking similarity in shape, I'll need to check what Yu Yevon actually looked like later). Really though, the finale gave me a lot of IX vibes... Amaurot (the dungeon) was essentially Memoria, right down to having an antagonist (Garland in IX) talk you through the history you're walking through. The whole Ascian plot is also strikingly similar to Garlands plot in IX, the details are very different of course, but it still ultimately boils down to both wanting to sacrifice a young planet to save their old planet. You could even view the Terminus event in Amaurot as being the planet dying of "natural" causes, same as IXs Terra, although I honestly expect more VII on that point later (Jenova-reference caused the Terminus event, probably). Fun fact, but Hades was also originally intended to be the final boss of IX, rather than the optional superboss we got instead. That fact alone, combined with all the other IX references in the build up? Shadowbringers is the IX reference expansion in the same sense Stormblood was the V reference expansion with Shinryu and Omega. Despite the final boss, you could also say Heavensward was the VI reference expansion... Starts in a snowy city... Involves a floating continent with the Warring Triad...

[Lambdafish]

Ultima Weapon in XIV is clearly based off the same model as VII, I don't think anyone can possibly dispute that.
Knights of the Round originated from, and are largely famous because of, VII. The fight in XIV even references VIIs screen shatter effect, and largely kept to the order and attacks of the Knights.
Same with Hades, his first appearance in Final Fantasy was in VII; IX and XI came after VII so that's obvious. While V obviously came before VII, Hades never appeared in the original release of V, he was an optional boss of an entirely new secret dungeon in the Advanced release of V, which came out after VII.

Hades is arguably the weakest link, since he was an entirely forgettable summon in VII, and his later appearances in IX and XI are far more noteworthy, but still. I'd like to think this is intentional, given Yoshida has said VII was his favorite title in the franchise, and his premier to XIV was very VII based with Project Meteor and Nael van Darnus... Heck, to this day our MSQ quest marker is essentially the VII Meteor logo... While Stormblood broke the trend with Shinryu, it was still very VII based in its references towards the end... We had a (totally-not) Mako Cannon, the Resonant Project pods were very reminiscent of VIIs SOLDIER pods, the first boss of Ala Mhigo is the first boss of VII, Aulus might as well be Hojo, heck Zenos might as well be Sephiroth at this point (Garlemalds ultimate soldier forged from human experimentation, has a thing for Nippon Steel, long hair, died but didn't stay dead...), and technically he was the one piloting Shinryu in the finale of Stormblood...

This is probably the fairest response to my post IMO. And I think people are mistake if they think I am in any way complaining about the bosses themselves, every expansion (maybe not ARR) has had a brilliant, epic ending, and all of the fights and bosses themselves are really well done. I guess the thing that irked me this time around was how little sense it made. Ultima Weapon was a huge plot point throughout the latter half of ARR, and made total sense and by it's reputation alone was very nostalgic, KOTR was a perfect fit for Thordan and his knights, and was a very clever way to fit the reference into a unique set of characters, and Shinryu, while an obvious reference was a known threat since 3.55. The final boss of Shadowbringers is Emet-Selch, that is how we know him, and that is what he should have stayed. The Hades reveal to me shows that the development team cannot have a final boss be an original character, and it just felt shoehorned.

The worst part about the Hades reveal is that VII isn't the only final fantasy, and it feels like it is focused on. FFX has very little representation, and FF8 didn't either until the Eden raid (and still doesn't given that the only connection to 8 is the music and Eden itself). Hell, the main antagonist of FFX is Sin, why wasn't that used in connection to the Sin eaters? It would have probably fit much better in the same way that KotR were a natural fit into Heavensward.

[HumanNinjaToo]

The worst part about the Hades reveal is that VII isn't the only final fantasy, and it feels like it is focused on. FFX has very little representation, and FF8 didn't either until the Eden raid (and still doesn't given that the only connection to 8 is the music and Eden itself). Hell, the main antagonist of FFX is Sin, why wasn't that used in connection to the Sin eaters? It would have probably fit much better in the same way that KotR were a natural fit into Heavensward.

I think you make a pretty fair point about the other FF games not being fairly represented, considering FF7, FF8, and FFX are the three top selling games in FF numbered franchise. Considering FF8 Remaster launces in about two weeks, it's fair to assume that FF8 will soon be the top selling of those three titles. I'm not sure why FF14 doesn't play a little more fan service to big events for other FF/SE titles. It seems like wasted opportunities to me.

[linay]

The final boss of Shadowbringers is Emet-Selch, that is how we know him, and that is what he should have stayed. The Hades reveal to me shows that the development team cannot have a final boss be an original character, and it just felt shoehorned.

Regular-looking person turning into giant monster doesn't feel shoehorned in a Final Fantasy game. And with a change in form, a name change has a big chance of happening, so that doesn't feel shoehorned either.

Underrepresenting other FF games is a different matter and shouldn't really affect the Hades reveal.

[Fal_Kearst]

Also fun fact Hades was the final boss in FFXI Seekers of Adoulin.