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  1. #8
    Player
    Lauront's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Amaurot
    Posts
    4,449
    Character
    Tristain Archambeau
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylve View Post
    Which throws doubt onto Emets statements about the aetherial capacity of every Ancient being limitless. If it was limitless, why then would they have a special tool for the "eventuality" of an Ancient incapable of providing their own fuel for a Creation?
    It may have been close enough to all for it to seem that way to him. Consider the case of mentally handicapped individuals. They exist and in enough numbers for accommodations to be made for them, but they're still a small minority statistically speaking. Emet-Selch no doubt does engage in a bit of hyperbole, and we know that the Ancients had differential ability in how ably they could marshal their Creation powers, so it is entirely possible that as the civilisation grew as sophisticated as Amaurot, some could no longer "compete" (put another way: contribute adequately) by this point, without thereby meaning that the average Ancient did not possess remarkable reserves of aether in comparison to sundered souls (especially since the cycle of rebirth via the Lifestream may further wear down the soul's ability, unless one possesses a gift like the Echo.) Thus, not being the kind of society to throw them aside, you have means and methods devised to deal with this, with such individuals nonetheless being decidedly in the minority. Also, as a speculative point: sunder such a soul with already diminished capacities for aether, and perhaps you get something like a Pureblood, i.e. an individual incapable of wielding aether altogether without extrinsic assistance?

    I agree with the remainder of your points, in that they provide a plausible account of how it might have happened, in the event that the planetary aether did not replenish itself over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absimiliard View Post
    People seem determined to follow this "the Ancients were the cause of the first apocalypse" mentality despite what little evidence we currently have seeming to suggest the exact opposite.
    Indeed, it is far from confirmed.

    I think there's reasonable speculation as to why it could be the case, but at the same time, parasitic entities exist in the setting - without knowing the origin of the world, one cannot rule out the possibility of parasites having lain dormant inside the planet (even placed there potentially) until such time as they were able to free themselves, drawn by the prospect of the aether-rich cities of the Ancients, amongst a plethora of other possibilities. It is just sensible to think that that might be one possible explanation for it, though, even if nothing in the lore allows for a decisive view on it as yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by YianKutku View Post
    How could Hydaelyn possibly be blamed when Amaurot's fall happened before she was even conceived of, much less existed?
    What he is probably referring to is the idea that the Sundering was necessary and does not in any way malign her or her summoners, not even to the point of being an unintended mistake with its own dire consequences that may unfold later on, presumably because Zodiark was/became "evil" and tempered his summoners into doing his bidding, whether it be due to being aspected to Darkness or simply some other quirk of his summoning (i.e. summoned to purge the world of an infestation.) And furthermore, that there was something about the ancients (e.g. their powers of creation) which meant they could not be left to exist as they did... again taken to justify the Sundering. At the very least, they could offset such a thing by making the Sundering have its own set of bad side-effects, beyond the soul dilution (which whilst bad, does not seem to result in an inherently unstable set of affairs as things stand.)

    Although I think there is a strong possibility, based on my present understanding, that this is the route they're going down (Zodiark tempering his summoners to spread his aspect), I too would prefer that they didn't, and that their disagreement instead revolved around the final step of sacrifice the Convocation desired. I like the idea of being Darkness-aspected not necessarily meaning one is evil whilst still engendering significant differences in their philophical standpoint, such as the steps the Ascians are willing to take to re-create their world and their rationale for it. Whereas if it's all attributable to tempering (and she conveniently did not temper her summoners due to being too weak at the time to do so), it simply becomes a rather generic Manichaean plotline, of which I've already had my fill. They'd just be shifting the "blame" entirely onto Zodiark.

    If they just make it so that her summoning was necessary to undo that evil and that all is good and dandy now that she's around, with no adverse consequences, I too would find that disappointing.

    Zodiark may have taken on the aspect of Darkness for any number of reasons - intentionally (in the same way your Blessing of Light allowed for the defeat of the Lightwardens, his Darkness may have proved an advantage against the fiends in the world) or unintentionally (i.e. tainted by the scourge of the fiends having taken hold over the world at the time of his summoming, or as a result of his intended purpose influencing the summoning.) I'd just like a bit more out of him than generic evil god who enthralled the ancients who summoned him (and worse yet, deceived them as to his capacity/willingness to revive their fallen), and I am hoping that this is presaged by whatever differences they mentioned there are between Elidibus and the other Overlords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quor View Post
    Having said that, I personally wouldn't mind if there was some other greater existence being kept in check by Zodiark. It's been awhile since we had some kind of giant space flea from nowhere, and I'm fiending for a hit.
    Especially something that is a much greater threat yet to a sundered world than a whole one.

    As for it being hubris, soft or otherwise, I think it may just be a case of a phenomenon that was nigh imperceptible to them. Very difficult to blame someone for such a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    I do not believe that the Ancients themselves are to blame for the destruction that befell them. From what we saw of their society it was a very peaceful one. The use of creation magic was also regulated and not simply used for pure decadence. In addition, debate was encouraged and decisions were weighed carefully. We also see the sheer scale of the destruction wrought upon the Ancients in the Amaurot dungeon itself. Bringing forth Zodiark was not done on a whim, it was very much presented as a necessity to prevent the Star from fading into nothing.

    Having the blame pinned on the Ancients would be a pretty disappointing revelation and I do not doubt that the only reason it is pushed so heavily as a theory around these parts is due to the resident Hydaelyn enthusiasts desperately wanting her to be free of any and all blame, no matter how many characters or factions have to be thrown under the bus in order for such to occur.
    Agreed and I think that is why the Convocation stalled for a while. The Amaurotines clearly didn't take the notion of intervening abroad lightly and they were the kind to wait, analyse and then act; I think what happened is they were not able to predict the exponential advance of the "Final Days", which then led to more drastic solutions.
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    Last edited by Lauront; 08-24-2019 at 06:47 AM.
    When the game's story becomes self-aware: