What is Ascian prime? (Spoilers for Shadowbringers)

[Lambdafish]

I've been doing some thinking back on the Ascian lore that we have had leading up to shadowbringers and how shadowbringers allows us to look at it in a new light, and one piece of info that has always baffled me is Ascian Prime from the end of heavensward.

So what we have learned is that there are only 3 real ascians: Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-selch, and that they are far more powerful than their immediate forms seem. We see this with Emet-selch's transformation into Hades.

But what about Ascian prime? Lahabrea is supposed to be as powerful as Emet-selch alone, but must fuse with Igeyorhm to become Ascian Prime, a being much less powerful than Hades? It's always confused me how much weaker Lahabrea seems, and he is presented on equal strength to Igeyorhm, who by all accounts is nothing but a broken husk in comparison.

So how does Ascian Prime fit into the new lore that we have been presented in regards to the Ascians? because it seems like a huge plot hole to me.

[Kokomi]

In the optional dialogue with Emet, it's explained that Lahabrea was much weaker because he would constantly switch bodies.

>> Choice 1: Why choose this form here in the first?
Emet-Selch: Well, well, what a curious question.
Emet-Selch: Mortal flesh is but the vessel into which we Ascians pour the elixir of our souls, molding it as fits the occasion. Or not, if we so choose.
Emet-Selch: Be it for a year or a millennium, I prefer to retain the same form until my duty is done. So, after arriving here in the First, I fashioned some hapless body into the man you see before you.
Emet-Selch: Though as your friend over there can attest, there are those of us who forgo such alterations.
Emet-Selch: He was ever the rash one, Lahabrea. Jumping from vessel to vessel. Never heeding the toll it took on him.

[RyuDragnier]

In the optional dialogue with Emet, it's explained that Lahabrea was much weaker because he would constantly switch bodies.

This. He had to combine with a sundered Ascian just to get enough power to take us on because of his switching of bodies. Had he not done that over time, he would have had more than enough power to defeat us himself.

[Enkidoh]

Model-wise at least, the Ascian Prime was actually a recyling of the so-called 'bestial Ascian' seen briefly in one story cutscene in FFXIV version 1.0 where it suddenly showed up, hissed a bit (scaring the pants off some Ixal and amal'jaa in the process) and then disappeared. That form was never given any explanation at the time, although dummied dialogue that was meant for the never-implemented continuation of 1.0's Path of the Twelve story suggested this wraith-like form was actually a deliberate appearence by them, simply to instill fear in the beastmen, basically it was a false-flag operation: teach the beastmen how to summon Primals in the form of the 'benevolent, nurturing Paragons', and then drive home the threat not long after by getting around in the wraith form to terrify them into compliance.

Really seeing the Ascian Prime use this form at the end of the Aetherochemical Research Facility in HW brought a smile to my lips in that SE were finally referencing that long-forgotten plot element.

In regards to Lahabrea's power, you also have to remember that was not the first time we fought him, he knew full well how powerful we were and so was being cautious, realizing we were too strong in the light to crush via normal means, so combining his form with Igeyorhm via the 'true power of the Echo' was meant to be simply a way of overcoming our strength in the Light by superpowering his own strength by combining it with that of a collegeue (reusing his old "hammer of Darkness against the Shield of Light" shtick in ARR).

Of course even that was easily dealt with, and, well, we all know what happened next...

[Absimiliard]

Ascian Prime is the physical manifestation of Darwinism. >_>

[JeanneOrnitier]

I actually have to wonder if Emet's form in the trial isn't some "Super" Ascian Prime thing. It seemed to me like he fused with/was buffed by the spirits of ancient Amaurotines, given all the Ascian masks that appear in the background during the fight.

[Cilia]

I actually have to wonder if Emet's form in the trial isn't some "Super" Ascian Prime thing. It seemed to me like he fused with/was buffed by the spirits of ancient Amaurotines, given all the Ascian masks that appear in the background during the fight.

His first form is arguably the closest thing the Ascians have to a "true" form, given as they don't typically have physical forms that aren't stolen and remade in their image. (While Emet-Selch does take on the form of "Solus zos Galvus," it's rather unlikely that's his original form. Back when he was setting up Allag, he probably looked different.)

Hades' second form is using the souls of dead Ascians to further power himself up, though. Or so it's implied.

[Absimiliard]

Hades' second form is using the souls of dead Ascians to further power himself up, though. Or so it's implied.

Note that Emet-Selch claims to be stifled by his vessel of flesh right before impaling himself and initiating the second phase. The implication there is that his power was being restrained, seemingly significantly, by the host body he was inhabiting. Another thing I would point out is that his second form increases in size just after his mentioning of being raised up by the prayers of his fallen brethren. It seems more like he's emulating a primal by drawing strength from the prayers of the Ancients sleeping within Zodiark to further augment the already impressive might of his true aetherial (see: hostless) self. Could be both though.

What makes it difficult for me to believe he took in a bunch of Ascian souls is their imprisonment within Zodiark. With Zodiark split, one would think those souls quite well beyond his reach for the time being.

[Anonymoose]

No antagonist is safe from VILLAIN DECAY.

What was once an intimidating and badass enemy appropriate to our content progression eventually pales in comparison to a later threat, despite the story's claims that they are equal. The excuse for it is as simple as it is plausible, of course; Lahabrea's defining feature was his arrogance.

Ascian Prime is basically just something closer to Lahabrea's true form, with his strength supplemented by Igeyorhm's not unlike when as ours was supplemented by Ardbert's.

Meanwhile, Hades is Emet-Selch at arguably full strength after millennia of bearing the burden of what he felt to be his bretheren's desire to return. He put an extraordinary amount of pressure on himself and it twisted his "true Ascian form" into something even more imposing. One could argue that the strength of his conviction for the world he loved and the people he wanted to save was the source of his incredible strength compared to Lahabrea ... not unlike the Warrior of Light themselves.

[Daralii]

This. He had to combine with a sundered Ascian just to get enough power to take us on because of his switching of bodies. Had he not done that over time, he would have had more than enough power to defeat us himself.

He was also arguably trying to experiment with Hydaelyn's rules. His exchange with Igeyorhm made it seem like he'd been trying to find a willing Paragon for a while and she was just the first to relent, and after being forced apart he made it sound like it took an immense amount of strength to keep Ascian Prime together while Hydaelyn's laws of reality were trying to sunder it.