Adding risk to the game?

[Insertcoins]

You can still make hard content with ultimate-style ilvl lock without making it ultimate difficulty. People who're looking for riskier stuff are probably not the type to constantly complain about things being too hard, the two complaints usually go hand-in-hand (like your above comment talking about the risk of eureka exp loss alongside actual difficulty).

Nobody does rath because there's not much reason to, and it's kind of a strange/non-traditional fight anyway with how it treats tanks/healers, so people looking for hard 4 man content probably aren't looking for something like rath.

Saying "people would cheese hard content if they could" applies just as easily to POTD, so I don't know how that's supposed to be a point. If you let people grind to +150 aetherflow gear in POTD 200, people would do that too.

Rath has the same point like the primal does. The mounts. Saying Rath doesn:t is like saying there:s no point in the primals and people do those all the time. The funny thing is Rath DOES answer most people issues. It:s 4 man, is def extremely hard - if you don:t cheese it... and to be hoenst... it:s STILL hard. Going by the amount of people who FAIL it even with 4 tanks- On my last main - it:s currently deleted T.T- it took me 4 months to grind that mount. And that was doing it everyday for 12 hours striaght. People failed THAT much and people cried about not wanting to do it cause the mount while only needing 50/half of a normal exprimal to get. It was the hardest thing in the game and people wanted it nerfed so bad. People still cheeseing it.

I guess my point is deep dungeon I feel in my opinion is doing hard content the best since you really can:t cheese it. It also answers the need to want random mechs in 4 mans since none of what you can get away with in deep dungeon would work in normal dungeons. Unless you wanna see how fast this playerbase nopes out of content. But my over all point is we HAVE this stuff already. I don:t blame the devs for not adding more when people don:t do the stuff we already have.

[Hawklaser]

And lets be real... if risk was such a good thing now it:ll sell. Hard games don:t sell anymore... not like they used too anyway.

I'd disagree that hard games don't sell. The Dark Souls franchise is a very good example. The problem a lot of hard games run into is they are Punishing and not Challenging. Punishing games are the ones that don't sell, and its much easier to create a punishing game than a challenging one.

Early on there seemed to be a better understanding and ability that allowed more games to actually be challenging and not punishing. You can probably thank arcades and the coin-op machines for that. They had to find the right level of challenge to get people to keep plugging those machines. Punishing games, would be quickly walked away from, while the challenging ones would keep people playing. And for most early console games, they were designed by the same people designing for the arcades.

Some of the old MMO mechanics like xp lost on death were more on the punishing side of the equation.

So the question isn't so much about how to not add difficulty and challenge, but how to not make it punishing.

Sadly the tolerance for challenging games went down because of the trend of developers shying away from making challenging games, due to lumping challenging and punishing games together as hard. And thanks to punishing games far out weighing the challenging games, it was assumed both didn't sell. Which is most of what lead to the glut of easy games.

So the question becomes how to add some challenge without it being seen as punishing.

[Eldevern]

...

It's more or less that.

The thing it is easier to make solo games with a step-by-step increasing level of difficulty. For a MMO especially RPG, many people aren't running them for challenge, even less competition, but for the RP and the story.

One factor to consider is the reward. A recent study about Fornite explains that players are expecting some kind of reward. Punishing contents with pure loss are not interesting because they appears like a waste of time.

[SturmChurro]

One factor to consider is the reward. A recent study about Fornite explains that players are expecting some kind of reward. Punishing contents with pure loss are not interesting because they appears like a waste of time.

Naturally the reward(s) are a giant motivator for the general community. Most people will not want to do something challenging - or easy - if it doesn't give them something in return for their time/effort. People have complained about this in WoW as well (specifically rewards) and the players of that game seem to enjoy content that rewards them well.

Unfortunately, developers nowadays are choosing to add more desirable items to cash shops. While leaving the base game having few desirable rewards/items for the time they put in, and psychologically using the players who have purchased items via the cash shop to try and get more players to purchase items via cash shop. Make no mistake, cosmetic microtransactions* are also harmful to a game, just as pay to win is - just a different beast.

In the context of this game, while it has a cash shop with a large amount of items, I think there are just enough rewards in the base game to justify doing content to collect. However, to me there seems to be less now. I am eagerly awaiting what they plan to do about artifacts this time around. I am hoping something on the level of eureka rewards, but more enjoyable to actually play - I would also like a punishing aspect like eureka, maybe even just a refined, overhauled eureka personally.

[KatenKyokotsu]

What risks do you want OP? ++ your weapon and rage when it drops to +3 while trying for a +15?

[Bonbori]

Risk? Have you tried joining ex/savage "clear for a friend/alt" parties in PF? Russian Roulette was invented to provide safer content than that for casual risk-takers.

[BAM4000]

No.. but people sure did cry about it. It was crazy how people wanted to nerf a dungeon boss cause they couldn:t get out the way of AOEs. ;c

tons of dungeons and and trials have been nerfed since the initial release. the original expert dungeons(amdapor, wanderers, and pharos) got smacked with the nerf bat.
lets not forget steps of faith and good king moggle mog as well, when all you had to do to clear those was actually play the game, and they STILL got nerfed.
im not sure whos was crying about it but those people need to stop.

[RyuSaarva]

I'd disagree that hard games don't sell. The Dark Souls franchise is a very good example. The problem a lot of hard games run into is they are Punishing and not Challenging. Punishing games are the ones that don't sell, and its much easier to create a punishing game than a challenging one.

Early on there seemed to be a better understanding and ability that allowed more games to actually be challenging and not punishing. You can probably thank arcades and the coin-op machines for that. They had to find the right level of challenge to get people to keep plugging those machines. Punishing games, would be quickly walked away from, while the challenging ones would keep people playing. And for most early console games, they were designed by the same people designing for the arcades.

Some of the old MMO mechanics like xp lost on death were more on the punishing side of the equation.

So the question isn't so much about how to not add difficulty and challenge, but how to not make it punishing.

Sadly the tolerance for challenging games went down because of the trend of developers shying away from making challenging games, due to lumping challenging and punishing games together as hard. And thanks to punishing games far out weighing the challenging games, it was assumed both didn't sell. Which is most of what lead to the glut of easy games.

So the question becomes how to add some challenge without it being seen as punishing.

souls games are not hard, you can make them very easy and 1 hit kill bosses or just summopn other players and let them carry you.

[Insertcoins]

tons of dungeons and and trials have been nerfed since the initial release. the original expert dungeons(amdapor, wanderers, and pharos) got smacked with the nerf bat.
lets not forget steps of faith and good king moggle mog as well, when all you had to do to clear those was actually play the game, and they STILL got nerfed.
im not sure whos was crying about it but those people need to stop.

Pretty much. That:s pretty much what I was saying.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Ever play Runescape? No thanks