Should Thunder be left out of rotation for BLM?

[Acidblood]

Kinda thought this was a bit of a contested subject? Fire 2, as I understand it, is just taking up time you could be using on Flare, even at 50. Unless I haven't kept up with new info, I was under the impression that 50s AoE amounts to Fire 3, Flare, Transpose, repeat (with appropriate Thunders, naturally). Why wait for more MP regeneration than needed, and instead just roll right back over to Flare soon as you can (MP ticks allowing).
But I'm hardly a meta-gamer, and I know that, if nothing else, this does feel somehow less satisfying. Transpose? And hard-casting F3? It just feels wrong.

I'm not aware that anything has changed, and AFAIK it is contested because while the Fire III > Flare > Transpose rotation is theoretically better (just) it is also more sensitive to the timing of MP ticks (due to the relatively frequent use of Transpose), edit: and it loses out on large groups due to poorer scaling... there is also the practical issue of Flares long cast time (i.e. if the target mob dies, or you are forced to move, it can be a relatively large DPS loss).

You're correct. Fire 2 is always a DPS loss once you have either Freeze or Flare.
You want to spam Freeze up to level 50, then squeeze in as many Flares as possible after that. Fire III > Flare (Manafont>Flare) > Transpose > Blizzard III > repeat is the best up to 68, and even then, it's just about getting more Flares in.

Blizzard III? Did you mean Freeze?

[Hasrat]

Blizzard III? Did you mean Freeze?

(they've edited it to be Freeze by this point, but) This is the one point of the rotation I was never quite certain/clear on. I couldn't quite tell if the consensus was to skip B3 (Freeze now, after it's been made useful). On the one hand, it's one more spell getting in the way of Flare. And back when it was B3, it was a long one. I suppose now with Freeze, it may probably math out better. But, prior to Eno, I sometimes thought, after Transpose, you'd maybe just do Thunder 2, Fire 3, Flare, and Transpose again. Between casting T2 and hardcasting F3, it should mostly probably maybe be enough MP recovery for that Flare? Idk. But I guess it is a null point now with Freeze. Quick (quicker than B3 anyway) cast for full UI, bigger MP regen per tick, for quick cast to full AF. Hardly a contest now.

[Acidblood]

(they've edited it to be Freeze by this point, but) This is the one point of the rotation I was never quite certain/clear on. I couldn't quite tell if the consensus was to skip B3 (Freeze now, after it's been made useful). On the one hand, it's one more spell getting in the way of Flare. And back when it was B3, it was a long one. I suppose now with Freeze, it may probably math out better. But, prior to Eno, I sometimes thought, after Transpose, you'd maybe just do Thunder 2, Fire 3, Flare, and Transpose again. Between casting T2 and hardcasting F3, it should mostly probably maybe be enough MP recovery for that Flare? Idk. But I guess it is a null point now with Freeze. Quick (quicker than B3 anyway) cast for full UI, bigger MP regen per tick, for quick cast to full AF. Hardly a contest now.

MP isn't an issue, 1 tick under UI is 3200 which is more than enough for T2 + F3 + Flare (min 800) ... from the math I did Freeze after Transpose was a small gain due to its damage + reduced cast time of F3 thanks to UI3. (I haven't done the math using B3 but I don't imagine it would have ever been worth using as it would effectively extend the rotation by a full GCD for only 240 potency on a single target).

[Kacho_Nacho]

Spamming* Freeze is actually better AoE DPS than trying to do the Fire II rotation (due to potency losses in switching between IU and AF)... so yeah, right from level 35 Freeze is pretty great.

* Though don't forget to do Thunder II / Thundercloud.

It is? Wow! I'm going to check this out.

[Taranok]

I'm not aware that anything has changed, and AFAIK it is contested because while the Fire III > Flare > Transpose rotation is theoretically better (just) it is also more sensitive to the timing of MP ticks (due to the relatively frequent use of Transpose), edit: and it loses out on large groups due to poorer scaling... there is also the practical issue of Flares long cast time (i.e. if the target mob dies, or you are forced to move, it can be a relatively large DPS loss).

AFAIK, as of ShB, Flare scales vastly better than Fire 2 no matter the group size, because Flare is 100% for the first target, and 60% for every other target (tooltip reads 40% less). At 60%, Flare is a solid 50% better than fire 2 at blowing up enemies per unit time spent on it. It still has all of the other problems, the biggest by far being server tics on MP regen, but in a perfect world Flare just craps all over fire 2.

At some point, the devs just flat out need to sit down and design the BLM aoe rotation at all levels and make it so that that is how the rotation plays best. Fire 3 is dumb in the aoe rotation, and fire 2 being a dead skill is also dumb.

[Acidblood]

AFAIK, as of ShB, Flare scales vastly better than Fire 2 no matter the group size, because Flare is 100% for the first target, and 60% for every other target (tooltip reads 40% less). At 60%, Flare is a solid 50% better than fire 2 at blowing up enemies per unit time spent on it. It still has all of the other problems, the biggest by far being server tics on MP regen, but in a perfect world Flare just craps all over fire 2.

At some point, the devs just flat out need to sit down and design the BLM aoe rotation at all levels and make it so that that is how the rotation plays best. Fire 3 is dumb in the aoe rotation, and fire 2 being a dead skill is also dumb.

Fire II desperately needs a cast time and MP cost reduction; 2.5s and 1100MP (2200 in AF = 4 casts per rotation) would put it above Freeze spam (at least at AF3) and single slow cast Flare. I don't really care if it becomes useless at level 68 (but an upgraded version could be nice).

As for the Fire III issue, I'm not sure it's that much of an issue... It would be nice if Aspect Mastery affected Flare, but BLM already does very high AoE damage post level 68 / 72, so... What I do think we need though is for Magick and Mend II to be lowered to level 34 to match up with Fire III, and for Blizzard III (currently 40) and Freeze (currently 35) to swap places, as hard casting Fire III and using Freeze to transistion on single target should not be encouraged.

[Waliel]

What? This is the first time I eaver heared that. Source? The Job guide only says Astral Fire increases fire damage and mp cost and Umbral Ice offers mp regeneration. And Magick and Mend 2 trait says the cast times are half for the opposite element, but nowhere does it say damage is reduced for the opposite element.

AF1: 0% mana regen, +40% fire damage, +100% fire mana costs, -10% ice damage, -50% ice mana costs
AF2: 0% mana regen, +60% fire damage, +100% fire mana costs, -20% ice damage, -75% ice mana costs
AF3: 0% mana regen, +80% fire damage, +100% fire mana costs, -30% ice damage, -75% ice mana costs (-100% at lvl 72), +100% ice cast speed

UI1: +30% mana regen, -10% fire damage, -50% fire mana costs
UI2: +45% mana regen, -20% fire damage, -75% fire mana costs
UI3: +60% mana regen, -30% fire damage, -75% fire mana costs (-100% at lvl 72), +100% fire cast speed