Thought about RDM's utility

[Duelle]

Raise isn't a caster role skill.

Giving caster DPS the ability to battle rez in controlled amounts wouldn't be a bad thing. I'd personally go for introducing "DPS raise" as an ability on a 60s cooldown (subsequently remove Verraise and SMN's access to Resurrect).

When we got our third caster, it got a raise because it’s part of its job identity.

Raise may be a white magic spell, but it is not a defining aspect of RDM.

BLM does not need a raise, it wouldn’t work with its kit at all, Swiftcast is needed in its rotation and to help maintain AF/Enochian, and it has unlimited MP.

Making it a role ability on a 60s cooldown means MP is not a factor.

PS: Job homogenization is a non-threat, as BLM still has Enochian/Polyglot/Astral Fire/Umbral Ice, SMN would still have trances and aetheflow, and RDM would still have spell spam & the glowy toy sword.

[Seraphor]

Giving caster DPS the ability to battle rez in controlled amounts wouldn't be a bad thing. I'd personally go for introducing "DPS raise" as an ability on a 60s cooldown (subsequently remove Verraise and SMN's access to Resurrect).
Raise may be a white magic spell, but it is not a defining aspect of RDM.
Making it a role ability on a 60s cooldown means MP is not a factor.

PS: Job homogenization is a non-threat, as BLM still has Enochian/Polyglot/Astral Fire/Umbral Ice, SMN would still have trances and aetheflow, and RDM would still have spell spam & the glowy toy sword.

So what version should ALL casters get? Role skills at all are a bad idea.
Give Healers their own versions of Esuna back please.
Physical Ranged already have their own versions of a party defense buff, give every job its unique skills please.

Why not give SMN a 60s CD Resurrection, and give RDM a 60s CD Verraise with 2 charges.
Differentiate it a bit. BLM doesn't need one at all.

[Duelle]

So what version should ALL casters get?

Assuming you're talking about caster DPS, I'd suggest a simple word like Recovery or Arise.

Assuming you're talking about all casters as a whole, Raise becoming a role action for healers (spell on the GCD with an 8s cast time), and Resurrect becoming a role action for caster DPS (instant cast, 60s cooldown).

Why not give SMN a 60s CD Resurrection, and give RDM a 60s CD Verraise with 2 charges.

That sounds too arbitrary for my tastes.

[Seraphor]

Assuming you're talking about caster DPS, I'd suggest a simple word like Recovery or Arise.

Assuming you're talking about all casters as a whole, Raise becoming a role action for healers (spell on the GCD with an 8s cast time), and Resurrect becoming a role action for caster DPS (instant cast, 60s cooldown).
That sounds too arbitrary for my tastes.

Arbitrary? For Red Mage's identity as a support dps with white magic? For its reputation as a rez bot?
2 charges would allow it to be more effective at raising than Summoner, yet still put a limit on it.

Everyone gets Raise?
What about Ascend, Resurrection, Verraise?
No. More. Role. Skills.

[SaberMaxwell]

That depends on group more than anything; RDM, like SMN, should be third priority to raise. It loses more damage than a healer in the event it has to cast the spell. Many will have them be first for a variety of reasons, but in my experience since RDM's Advent it's mainly "I thought he was fine. RDM scrape him off the floor so I can still get my orange ty."

[SaberMaxwell]

The context for the non-sequitor, mind, is his response to a similar comment about FFXI's RDM and I believe Refresh? It's one of those "change keywords and the subject of the sentiment changes although the sentiment itself does not" style of comments.

[Connor]

Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve been wondering if they really need to change Verraise for Red Mage to get personal DPS increases.

I’d understand if it gave some kind of damage increase, but isn’t the MP cost and DPS loss from not using Dualcast for damage already enough of a ‘tax’? If Red Mage had Vercure / Verraise exactly as they do now, but their personal DPS was higher than say, Dancer and Bard (which from what I understand would be the two lowest DPS if Red Mage and Ninja we’re properly balanced?), would it really make them too overpowered? It would be a bit strange to me if they just deleted Vercure/Verraise and shot Red Mage up to like, Monk/Black Mage/Dragoon levels (though their DPS levels are a whole different debate lol)

I guess what I’m trying to say is, why can’t we have both Vercure/Verraise, and properly balanced damage output? Would Red Mage really be overpowered if it had decent damage but could still Vercure/Verraise, given the costs they already come with to MP and damage? I mean, look at the amount of utility a Dragoon brings. Summoners can Raise and heal (Everlasting Flight) very easily and don’t come across MP issues as quickly as Red Mage does, but clunkiness aside they also do good DPS. Why can Summoner ‘have its cake and eat’ it but Red Mage has to have either all these restrictions on the same abilities or bottom of the barrel damage output

[TcomJ]

Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve been wondering if they really need to change Verraise for Red Mage to get personal DPS increases.

I’d understand if it gave some kind of damage increase, but isn’t the MP cost and DPS loss from not using Dualcast for damage already enough of a ‘tax’? If Red Mage had Vercure / Verraise exactly as they do now, but their personal DPS was higher than say, Dancer and Bard (which from what I understand would be the two lowest DPS if Red Mage and Ninja we’re properly balanced?), would it really make them too overpowered? It would be a bit strange to me if they just deleted Vercure/Verraise and shot Red Mage up to like, Monk/Black Mage/Dragoon levels (though their DPS levels are a whole different debate lol)

I guess what I’m trying to say is, why can’t we have both Vercure/Verraise, and properly balanced damage output? Would Red Mage really be overpowered if it had decent damage but could still Vercure/Verraise, given the costs they already come with to MP and damage? I mean, look at the amount of utility a Dragoon brings. Summoners can Raise and heal (Everlasting Flight) very easily and don’t come across MP issues as quickly as Red Mage does, but clunkiness aside they also do good DPS. Why can Summoner ‘have its cake and eat’ it but Red Mage has to have either all these restrictions on the same abilities or bottom of the barrel damage output

Considering the amount of utilities and buffs mnk have or even drg has, what they treat other classes are not justifiable whatsoever including RDM just because it has a raise. Should it be the lowest dps out of the casters? Perhaps. Should it be the lowest 3? NO.

[Duelle]

Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve been wondering if they really need to change Verraise for Red Mage to get personal DPS increases.

I’d understand if it gave some kind of damage increase, but isn’t the MP cost and DPS loss from not using Dualcast for damage already enough of a ‘tax’? If Red Mage had Vercure / Verraise exactly as they do now, but their personal DPS was higher than say, Dancer and Bard (which from what I understand would be the two lowest DPS if Red Mage and Ninja we’re properly balanced?), would it really make them too overpowered? It would be a bit strange to me if they just deleted Vercure/Verraise and shot Red Mage up to like, Monk/Black Mage/Dragoon levels (though their DPS levels are a whole different debate lol)

I personally don't think anyone here would have an issue with just a potency increase or a DPS output buff while leaving everything else intact. The problem is that to my knowledge, the devs have said that RDM damage is tuned the way it currently is because of utility like Verraise. That's largely why the response from some has been "okay, nerf/change/remove Verraise then".

Here's the thing though: Mechanically, you've just designed a melee job. Not "a caster DPS who also uses melee in near-equal shares", literally a melee job that punctuates combos with spells.

What I presented is simply one element of a bigger design. There is room to add ranged options, though the last time I suggested something along those lines I was told it made the design unfocused.

Sure, maybe every other attack or so is arbitrarily designed to have a range, but the same could be said of NIN mudras, DRG dives or any tank's MP skills

A NIN or DRG is not going to be able to cast cures or offer utility in a pinch. The closest thing we have right now is PLD with Clemency, and even that required a trait that removed spell interruptions from the table. That's where RDM's versatility would shine, and why I would push for melee strikes allowing instant spells. The player would have the choice between spending their instant spells on heals or nukes.

nothing is actually compelling you to back up when a spell comes up in the rotation, and you would functionally never want to back off unless compelled by encounter mechanics, making the act of giving the spells a range niche at best and largely flavor at worst.

You shouldn't be compelled to back away from a mob unless you absolutely have to. This is why I say that the current use of Corps and Displacement are wasteful. They were thrown in partly for "style" (except that resulted in the job jumping around the battlefield like an idiot), partly to fill space between GCDs.

On a personal note, I find the idea of hitting an enemy with a sword, followed by throwing a fireball at them at point blank range very satisfying.

Ultimately you're not only at the greatest advantage when dug into melee range, but literally unable to use most of your spells in the first place without being close enough to charge them with your melee.

Not necessarily. Spell use facilitated through melee is very different from spell use being allowed through melee. If you're at range for any reason (long telegraph, boss flies out of melee range), you could just hard cast spells or introduce a secondary mechanic that involves casting spells back to back. You'd do way more damage than a DRG (lolPiercing Talon) or NIN (assuming the NIN is waiting on a mudra cooldown) at range.

It's a core melee job in Int gear (and even that would be a point of contention).

I'll agree with you here. My earlier RDM write-ups had it as a DEX DPS, though that's largely because a ton of DEX gear was given aesthetics that suit RDM (Amon's hat comes to mind). I'm willing to be flexible on this, though.

I wouldn't say it's unlikely at all, just unlikely to happen overnight exactly the way you dictated. I could see many of these being taken as directions for advancements of the job in future expansions, and in fact we've already seen a slow creep in that direction even with what little we gained in Shadowbringers. Mana generation rates and melee skill emphasis were increased with the introduction of Scorch, while Reprise and the buff to Manafication made us more liberal with Mana spending outside of the 80/80 combo.

I don't celebrate the existence of Reprise, as that skill is basically Scathe 2.0 in how it relates to the rest of the kit. Unless Manafication was recently changed, a 110s cooldown (still way too long) and a buff to magical damage dealt doesn't really lean in the direction of more sword use.

Besides, ShB literally overhauled WHM, AST and BRD. Never say never, particularly with statements made a half decade ago.

I can only hope you're right.

I commend your willingness to actually discuss this stuff. As such, I'm gonna leave this here as well, in case you're curious as to what one of my completed ideas look like. Far from perfect, but a direction I would have wanted for the job.

[Archwizard]

Gonna keep this locked in the spoiler box just to keep it from potentially derailing the thread, but it seems to be winding down...

A NIN or DRG is not going to be able to cast cures or offer utility in a pinch. The closest thing we have right now is PLD with Clemency, and even that required a trait that removed spell interruptions from the table. That's where RDM's versatility would shine, and why I would push for melee strikes allowing instant spells. The player would have the choice between spending their instant spells on heals or nukes.

No, but a NIN or DRG wouldn't be spending GCDs on said sub-par healing either at the cost of their personal DPS. RDM still faces the same ability to be interrupted with Vercure, particularly since even Dualcasting Vercure (which is a terrible waste of the proc, mind), getting that proc means having full-cast another spell before it anyway.

On a personal note, I find the idea of hitting an enemy with a sword, followed by throwing a fireball at them at point blank range very satisfying.

I mean... the Verflare combo says hi.

Not necessarily. Spell use facilitated through melee is very different from spell use being allowed through melee. If you're at range for any reason (long telegraph, boss flies out of melee range), you could just hard cast spells or introduce a secondary mechanic that involves casting spells back to back. You'd do way more damage than a DRG (lolPiercing Talon) or NIN (assuming the NIN is waiting on a mudra cooldown) at range.

Big problem there though. Dualcast in itself is only a DPS gain not because it makes affected spells instant (which in itself only has a DPS value while moving or while oGCDs are available), but because it reduces their cast time below the GCD. This assumes then that, in order for a Dualcast proc mid-melee to come as a DPS gain, the spells it affects have to already bear cast times longer than the GCDs they consume.
So when it comes to spellcasting at range, as you've suggested, we're left with two potential options:

• One, that we're stopping while at range to hardcast spells that otherwise have a cast-time longer than the GCD. You would be hard-pressed to name one situation where a melee job being forced out to range but also limiting their mobility for longer than a GCD comes as a safe combination, much less a DPS gain; every situation I can think of usually involves a lot of running, and BLMs expressly gained tools to avoid that dangerous level of stutter-stepping. In fact those very situations are why DRG's Piercing Talon makes a fair comparison in the ABC game: it's instant, so you can keep moving.
• Two, that you have another spell to proc Dualcast with, like a Jolt or "VerScathe"... wherein the actual design is little different than what we have now, just with a general damage shift towards melee.

My earlier RDM write-ups had it as a DEX DPS, though that's largely because a ton of DEX gear was given aesthetics that suit RDM (Amon's hat comes to mind). I'm willing to be flexible on this, though.

I mean to be fair, it does wield a rapier. DEX would absolutely make the next most sense behind INT as far as melee, though I should point out that Amon's Hat and so forth are actually Physical Ranged DPS gear (which is, hilariously, the exact opposite role to what you're proposing).

I don't celebrate the existence of Reprise, as that skill is basically Scathe 2.0 in how it relates to the rest of the kit. Unless Manafication was recently changed, a 110s cooldown (still way too long) and a buff to magical damage dealt doesn't really lean in the direction of more sword use.

To address your second point first: You might be surprised! The reduction to Manafication's CD has now created two potential rotations based on whether or not you conserve it to align it based on party comp/coordination. The "120s Rotation" employs the use of Moulinet to delay our main combo for buff alignment.

And back to the first point: ... the fact that the above means we use Moulinet in single-target is rather jarring to me, which is why I had hoped Reprise would have been a substitute skill for that very purpose instead (in addition to other cases of "ABC is about to overcap my Mana but it's too dangerous to get into melee"). Alas, the fact that it spends even less Mana now means overcapping is less of a waste compared to multiple GCDs of it.

As such, I'm gonna leave this here as well, in case you're curious as to what one of my completed ideas look like. Far from perfect, but a direction I would have wanted for the job.

I don't think you're without interesting design ideas, just that they're misplaced to put them on the mantle of the Red Mage. I still think they would be much better suited towards a hypothetical Spellblade-esque job separate from the RDM.