Paladin Oath Gauge Idea

[waterboytkd]

There's been a bit of talk among Paladins recently that we need another way to build Oath outside of auto attacks. There also seems to be a large number of players that think our current iteration is fine. I'll admit, I fall in the latter. I think us not starting with the Oath for a Sheltron is fine considering we can bank 50 oath for an extra use later.

That said, Paladins *are* short a defensive cooldown compared to other tanks. This isn't the worst because we have extra group utility, but, if we had a way to generate Oath outside of combat, that "extra" use of Sheltron would essentially be our missing defensive cooldown.

So I had an idea that I wanted to run by the Paladin community for discussion: what if, instead of building 5 Oath with auto attacks, we instead built 5 Oath every server tick. Now, that would actually be slower Oath building then we currently have, so we would also make it so Holy Spirit and Holy Circle build 5 Oath when used.

The math I did (correct me if wrong) was using our entire rotation as the time frame. So that's 21 GCDs, approximately 63 seconds.

Currently: In 63 seconds, we will execute 25 auto attacks (1 every 2.5s), which generates 125 Oath.
*Skill Speed doesn't speed up Auto Attacks, right? It just increases their potency?

Proposed: In 63 seconds, we have 21 server ticks, which generates 105 Oath. In 63 seconds, we will also do 1 Requiescat window, which contains 4 Holy Spirits (or Holy Circles in an AoE situation), for 20 more Oath. So, 125 Oath.

The amount generated per 63 seconds would be the same, but we would start fights at 100 Oath (in a way, making up for our missing defensive cooldown), and would be able to generate Oath during downtime (the idea being that it gives Paladins parity with classes whose defensive buffs cooldown during downtime).

Like I said, I actually think Paladins are fine currently, but since this has been a big topic recently, I thought I'd throw an idea out there.

[Tex_Mex]

There's been a bit of talk among Paladins recently that we need another way to build Oath outside of auto attacks. There also seems to be a large number of players that think our current iteration is fine. I'll admit, I fall in the latter. I think us not starting with the Oath for a Sheltron is fine considering we can bank 50 oath for an extra use later.

That said, Paladins *are* short a defensive cooldown compared to other tanks. This isn't the worst because we have extra group utility, but, if we had a way to generate Oath outside of combat, that "extra" use of Sheltron would essentially be our missing defensive cooldown.

So I had an idea that I wanted to run by the Paladin community for discussion: what if, instead of building 5 Oath with auto attacks, we instead built 5 Oath every server tick. Now, that would actually be slower Oath building then we currently have, so we would also make it so Holy Spirit and Holy Circle build 5 Oath when used.

The math I did (correct me if wrong) was using our entire rotation as the time frame. So that's 21 GCDs, approximately 63 seconds.

Currently: In 63 seconds, we will execute 25 auto attacks (1 every 2.5s), which generates 125 Oath.
*Skill Speed doesn't speed up Auto Attacks, right? It just increases their potency?

Proposed: In 63 seconds, we have 21 server ticks, which generates 105 Oath. In 63 seconds, we will also do 1 Requiescat window, which contains 4 Holy Spirits (or Holy Circles in an AoE situation), for 20 more Oath. So, 125 Oath.

The amount generated per 63 seconds would be the same, but we would start fights at 100 Oath (in a way, making up for our missing defensive cooldown), and would be able to generate Oath during downtime (the idea being that it gives Paladins parity with classes whose defensive buffs cooldown during downtime).

Like I said, I actually think Paladins are fine currently, but since this has been a big topic recently, I thought I'd throw an idea out there.

Or we could just bypass all of this, and just make the oath gauge a simple 2 charge system where one charge is generated every 30 seconds. Charges can be built out of combat so that you can start with 2. Intervention, Shelltron, and Cover all cost 1 charge. Simple, effective, and completely trivializes the current gauge lol

[Saeno]

I'd rather PLD had a way to gain gauge when not being able to hit anything while in combat. All other tanks have moves like Infuriate, Inner release, Delirium and Bloodfest which allow these tanks to ignore their gauge but PLD is strictly tied to their auto attacks for gauge which sucks for downtime.

This wouldnt be that much of an issue if it wasnt for the fact that the dev team loves to put huge downtime phases like in Seiryu EX, Eden Prime, Byakko etc.

[waterboytkd]

I'd rather PLD had a way to gain gauge when not being able to hit anything while in combat. All other tanks have moves like Infuriate, Inner release, Delirium and Bloodfest which allow these tanks to ignore their gauge but PLD is strictly tied to their auto attacks for gauge which sucks for downtime.

This wouldnt be that much of an issue if it wasnt for the fact that the dev team loves to put huge downtime phases like in Seiryu EX, Eden Prime, Byakko etc.

That's why I suggested changing the primary method of building gauge to time (every 3 seconds, aka a server tick) rather than Auto attacks. The only reason I added in Holy Spirit/Circle also building Oath is because AAs are actually faster than server ticks, so that would make up the difference. Even in a situation where you can't attack, you still build Oath. 30s of downtime? That builds 50 Oath.

[Saeno]

That's why I suggested changing the primary method of building gauge to time (every 3 seconds, aka a server tick) rather than Auto attacks. The only reason I added in Holy Spirit/Circle also building Oath is because AAs are actually faster than server ticks, so that would make up the difference. Even in a situation where you can't attack, you still build Oath. 30s of downtime? That builds 50 Oath.

That seems to prioritize your spell casting then, also I imagine Confiteor would give 5 or 10 gauge. If you base it off of server ticks then i'd also attach oath generation to Royal authority and atonement. Maybe Goring blade as well.I'm not sure if this would just cause PLD to go overboard with gauge generation and make them a sheltron monster.

[waterboytkd]

That seems to prioritize your spell casting then, also I imagine Confiteor would give 5 or 10 gauge. If you base it off of server ticks then i'd also attach oath generation to Royal authority and atonement. Maybe Goring blade as well.I'm not sure if this would just cause PLD to go overboard with gauge generation and make them a sheltron monster.

Why would you add all these abilities to the list? Including Confiteor? There's no reason to just throw all their abilities on the list of stuff that generates Oath. Also, the reason to go with spells (and just Holy Spirit/Circle) is two-fold:
1) You only need 20 Oath to make up the difference between server ticks and AA. If you look at doing it in 5 Oath chunks, in a given 21 GCD rotation, the only ability you only use 4 times is Holy Spirit/Circle. It fits. (I guess, you could just tag 20 Oath generation onto Confiteor and call it a day...)
2) Spells have a restriction to prevent unlimited spamming. MP. You can't just prioritize your spell casting. You need to do your weaponskill comboes to build your MP back up.

This keeps the overall Oath generation pretty much exactly where it's currently at, except you start fights at max Oath and also get Oath during downtime.

[Tex_Mex]

I'd rather PLD had a way to gain gauge when not being able to hit anything while in combat. All other tanks have moves like Infuriate, Inner release, Delirium and Bloodfest which allow these tanks to ignore their gauge but PLD is strictly tied to their auto attacks for gauge which sucks for downtime.

This wouldnt be that much of an issue if it wasnt for the fact that the dev team loves to put huge downtime phases like in Seiryu EX, Eden Prime, Byakko etc.

The solution I put above fulfills this request. Charges build regardless of whether or not you are in combat.

That said, it seems like what you really want is an ability that just generates free oath. This is not at all comparable to the abilities you listed above because they are fundamentally different in what they bring and what they are meant to do:

Infuriate - Builds 50 Beast Gauge which can be used for offensive attacks. This ability cannot be used outside of combat. And realistically you would never want to because you would be wasting a potential Inner Chaos/Chaotic Cyclone. This is a DPS CD and is vital to WAR DPS.
Inner Release - Allows the WAR to ignore Beast Gauge cost for 10s. Can be used out of combat, but you would NEVER want to because it would be a huge DPS loss. Again Beast gauge, can only be used for offensive actions and is vital to WAR DPS.
Delirium - See Inner Release but fills blood gauge and for DRK. Otherwise, it is exactly the same skill and can only be used for offensive actions. Vital to DRK DPS.
Bloodfest - Generates 2 cartridges which can only be used for offensive actions. Vital for GNB DPS

Do you see a pattern here? PLD is the only class whose defensive skills are tied to their gauge. This makes gauge building fundamentally different for PLD when compare to other tanks. Asking for an instant 50 oath ability is the same as asking for another minor defensive CD, of which PLD already has many. There is an argument to be made that PLD is missing a personal defensive CD (see Camouflage, Dark Mind, and Thrill of Battle) but the strong utility PLD has easily makes up for this IMO.

[waterboytkd]

Or we could just bypass all of this, and just make the oath gauge a simple 2 charge system where one charge is generated every 30 seconds. Charges can be built out of combat so that you can start with 2. Intervention, Shelltron, and Cover all cost 1 charge. Simple, effective, and completely trivializes the current gauge lol

Honestly, our suggestions are almost identical. Using server ticks, you build 50 Oath in 30 seconds (aka 1 charge of Sheltron/Intervention/Cover). The only reason I also suggested 5 Oath per Holy Spirit/Circle was because that is technically a nerf to our Oath generation in combat (which generates 50 Oath in...25 seconds? Or is it faster? I can't remember the exact value of Sword auto attack delay). But yeah, when people ask for Oath outside of combat, I think they're essentially asking for some kind of variation of what we've suggested, or their just asking for a buff (which, imo, we don't need).

[Saeno]

Why would you add all these abilities to the list? Including Confiteor? There's no reason to just throw all their abilities on the list of stuff that generates Oath. Also, the reason to go with spells (and just Holy Spirit/Circle) is two-fold:
1) You only need 20 Oath to make up the difference between server ticks and AA. If you look at doing it in 5 Oath chunks, in a given 21 GCD rotation, the only ability you only use 4 times is Holy Spirit/Circle. It fits. (I guess, you could just tag 20 Oath generation onto Confiteor and call it a day...)
2) Spells have a restriction to prevent unlimited spamming. MP. You can't just prioritize your spell casting. You need to do your weaponskill comboes to build your MP back up.

This keeps the overall Oath generation pretty much exactly where it's currently at, except you start fights at max Oath and also get Oath during downtime.

That's a good way to put it. I agree with your suggestions. It's also much better to add gauge onto MP moves instead of weapon skills because this way you can generate gauge in aoe situations with Holy circle. Although perhaps Prominence should also add 5 gauge.

[Saeno]

The solution I put above fulfills this request. Charges build regardless of whether or not you are in combat.

That said, it seems like what you really want is an ability that just generates free oath. This is not at all comparable to the abilities you listed above because they are fundamentally different in what they bring and what they are meant to do:

Infuriate - Builds 50 Beast Gauge which can be used for offensive attacks. This ability cannot be used outside of combat. And realistically you would never want to because you would be wasting a potential Inner Chaos/Chaotic Cyclone. This is a DPS CD and is vital to WAR DPS.
Inner Release - Allows the WAR to ignore Beast Gauge cost for 10s. Can be used out of combat, but you would NEVER want to because it would be a huge DPS loss. Again Beast gauge, can only be used for offensive actions and is vital to WAR DPS.
Delirium - See Inner Release but fills blood gauge and for DRK. Otherwise, it is exactly the same skill and can only be used for offensive actions. Vital to DRK DPS.
Bloodfest - Generates 2 cartridges which can only be used for offensive actions. Vital for GNB DPS

Do you see a pattern here? PLD is the only class whose defensive skills are tied to their gauge. This makes gauge building fundamentally different for PLD when compare to other tanks. Asking for an instant 50 oath ability is the same as asking for another minor defensive CD, of which PLD already has many. There is an argument to be made that PLD is missing a personal defensive CD (see Camouflage, Dark Mind, and Thrill of Battle) but the strong utility PLD has easily makes up for this IMO.

The point I was making was not because I find it unfair that PLD doesn't have some sort of instant gauge ability, rather PLD is tied strictly to auto attacks which has some issues just by design. Specifically you cannot generate gauge when you can't actually hit something. Server ticks are fine since that way is independent of you being able to cast auto attacks so long as you generate slight gauge from your attacks to balance the slower gauge build from server ticks (3.00 seconds) over autos (2.24 seconds).

Having sheltron on charges is no different than having 100 gauge at the start of the encounter. It's a fine solution as well but then the entire gauge mechanic for PLD would become redundant and most likely removed.