Reasonable buff to war

[Hierro]

I picked up War again recently to give it another chance after abandoning it on launch because tanking had become dull. I'm baffled anyone can think it's in a good spot.

The reason why people proclaim WAR to be in a good spot is because it REALLY is in a good spot. The job itself was lauded throughout all of SB, and there was little objection whenever WAR was praised as the prime example of great class design. Now, as we can objectively describe, the job has changed little compared to its peers. Is that a bad thing considering the past qualifier that WAR was fine? More than fine, it was great. So no, the fact WAR saw few changes is something I'd call an excellent decision.

Fun? That's personal taste. I think it's fun now for the same reasons I thought it was fun back then: big burst coupled with smooth gameplay and great design. I can already tell you, those reasons are still there.

Lowest DPS? I'm not so sure about that one, given some fights it's actually third place, depending if you're looking at median scores or max DPS on different savage fights. But I'll humor you and pretend that it's dead last in all fights, for the sake of the argument. In a fight like e4s, we see a discrepancy of 130 DPS between median scores for GNB and WAR. That's what standing between the bottom and the top. In a glorified dummy fight like e2s, looking at max scores, we're seeing a slightly larger discrepancy at 200 dps. That difference is so insignificant considering we're talking about tanks hitting at 9.3k and 9.5k, within raid comps that exceed 100k rDPS. And we're crying over 200 DPS (a 0.2% of such a raid comp btw) and the "last place in DPS" title like it means anything?

Utility-wise, it's still pretty darn good. SiO is still good. Holmgang is still the invuln with the shortest recast. It can actually support a MT now with nascent flash. What more do you want or need? Does it need to grow wings out of its back to have special utility? Does it need to turn all damage into 0 to have special mitigation?

You play WAR because you want to, because you like the simplicity and low APM with all the flashiness that comes with it, and you never go wrong with the option. Besides, from the look of things after thoroughly examining your logs, WAR sounds like just the job for you considering you don't really play tank.

[Kabooa]

The reason why people proclaim WAR to be in a good spot is because it REALLY is in a good spot. The job itself was lauded throughout all of SB, and there was little objection whenever WAR was praised as the prime example of great class design.

Uh, you sure about that?

I remember launch it wasn't all that well liked, including through the savage patch and 4.1 adjustments. And then unga bunga 4.2 came along and at that point the job became a meme. Sure, people had fun with it, but I wouldn't go around calling that the prime example of great class design. I think Paladin gets to take that crown before the Warrior does, and from personal opinion I'd still put SB Dark Knight in front of it.

And then you just expand to other roles and I'd count like five others who could claim it before Warrior. Stormblood Bard without much question, Red Mage and Samurai (Though it was their expansion, so no adaptation from previous iterations had to be factored in), SB Black Mage, and personally I'd say SB Machinist too.

[Hierro]

Uh, you sure about that?

I remember launch it wasn't all that well liked, including through the savage patch and 4.1 adjustments. And then unga bunga 4.2 came along and at that point the job became a meme. Sure, people had fun with it, but I wouldn't go around calling that the prime example of great class design. I think Paladin gets to take that crown before the Warrior does, and from personal opinion I'd still put SB Dark Knight in front of it.

And then you just expand to other roles and I'd count like five others who could claim it before Warrior. Stormblood Bard without much question, Red Mage and Samurai (Though it was their expansion, so no adaptation from previous iterations had to be factored in), SB Black Mage, and personally I'd say SB Machinist too.

Oh, right. I forgot about that whole segment where stance dancing halved your guage. Such a blunder had to be wiped from my memory. However, the point remains that was something carried over from HW and maintained roughly afterwards. 4.2 changes aside, we still kept that main identity and design philosophy.

Now, while PLD was effectively the best tank, I wouldn't call it better designed due to how its tank stance never felt good going into, how slide-casting had to be performed to excel in, and other stuff that I don't care to get into. I loved SB DRK, more so than WAR, but that's preferences, and not something I'd attribute to design either.

Point remains, WAR's awesome right now.

[Kabooa]

Point remains, WAR's awesome right now.

Eh. Personally, the only time I got excited while leveling it was when Nascent Glint came online, and even then it should have just been a Bloodbath upgrade. It's kind of in the same park as Red Mage for me.

It's got no new toys, and any new conflicts that could have happened were immediately curtailed.

[Shurrikhan]

Uh, you sure about that?

I remember launch it wasn't all that well liked, including through the savage patch and 4.1 adjustments. And then unga bunga 4.2 came along and at that point the job became a meme. Sure, people had fun with it, but I wouldn't go around calling that the prime example of great class design. I think Paladin gets to take that crown before the Warrior does, and from personal opinion I'd still put SB Dark Knight in front of it.

And then you just expand to other roles and I'd count like five others who could claim it before Warrior. Stormblood Bard without much question, Red Mage and Samurai (Though it was their expansion, so no adaptation from previous iterations had to be factored in), SB Black Mage, and personally I'd say SB Machinist too.

I think those complaints, following the removal of half-gauging and the shared recasts on Inner Release and Unchained, were mostly just based in Warrior having a lower output floor than the other tanks yet still being eclipsed, at the time, by PLD at the highest levels of play, despite PLD having clearly stronger utility and less cost to its mitigation. Apart from Shake it Off being a complete meme, it was largely just a matter of... tuning.

4.1 Warrior would have been perfect to me if only

• Inner Release had also doubled gauge generation from weaponskills, to make it more useful in dungeons and to give it a little more ebb and flow against Infuriate.
• Gauge bonuses based on gauge recently spent instead of gauge readied. Sharper bonuses, more quickly fading. (Fell Cleave in order to add crit chance to a Storm's Path, rather than waiting until 100 gauge to Fell Cleave.)
• Defiance also affected healing from healing abilities, not just from healing spells. (No more accidental massive healing efficiency disparity, and more reasons to stance-dance.)
• Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone both had lifesteal, and all lifesteal was increased to 50% instead of an awkward by-level tapering modifier of... what, 28% by level 80?
• Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone no longer ignored Defiance's damage penalty, but their potency was increased to compensate, giving Unchained more burst potential.
• Similar to Enhanced Infuriate, gauge spent in Deliverance would reduce the CD on Unchained and gauge spent in Defiance would reduce the CD of Inner Release. This would mitigate its mitigation costs over time while playing further upon the idea of Equilibrium. (Some similar-ish changes on the other two tanks.)
• Deliverance/Defiance shared key. Automatically put in Deliverance upon swapping to Warrior. Can no longer accidentally drop stance. (PLD gets the same for Sw/Sh Oath.)

But alas, uga bunga "I hit hurd" WAR won out and the rest is history (mere prologue to the the nigh-one-mechanic WAR we have and will likely to continue to have).

[Liam_Harper]

Besides, from the look of things after thoroughly examining your logs, WAR sounds like just the job for you considering you don't really play tank.

What logs? As far as I know I don't really have many since my FC doesn't post logs. I'm fine admitting I don't savage at the moment and my SB War was usually around the 85-95th mark so take whatever you like from that. I generally play all 3 roles, it's good variety and gives you an insight into how each works and how to help make your teams life easier.

You're completely right its personal taste. I'm not saying anyone's opinion is "wrong", I'm just saying I find it hard to understand.

Warrior is by far in its most simplistic state ever. Emnity means nothing. You no longer have to maintain your gauge for that 5-10% crit. Onslaught is a no-brainer press twice between IR's, none of those stance->unchained->thrill tricks. No new abilities besides the clunky Nascent Flash and all this is on top of the fact War was already a meme for simplicity in SB, we've all seen the "how to play 4.2 War" pics.

If you enjoy it, that's great. I'm happy for you. I'm just saying I personally don't. It's not engaging. You get a week in and feel you've 95% mastered the class and don't really have much more to strive for. I'm not sure what purpose "great burst" even serves when emnity doesn't matter? Parsing mobs? Becoming the king of the 1 or 2 boss adds in the entire game that might be a threat? But maybe as you said you play War because you want the mediocre simplicity. I'm just surprised if the majority find it preferable gameplay.

[whiskeybravo]

But maybe as you said you play War because you want the mediocre simplicity. I'm just surprised if the majority find it preferable gameplay.

I find it quite nice playing a job that hasn't been redesigned 3 times. WAR basically plays the same as it has since ARR, minor changes here and there but the base combo, gauge spenders and most of its CDs have been a staple since the beginning. Sure some will find that boring, but others like myself may prefer the stability.