Reasonable buff to war

[Arrius]

Except it isn't equality. Warrior is straight up inferior to the other three tanks, albeit only slightly.

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

[ForteNightshade]

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

Why is it fine one tank has several clunky or downright unintuitive gameplay aspects while also doing the least damage? No one is saying Warrior has to be buffed back to meta status. They're simply pointing out flaws in its design. Saying that because it isn't laughably behind ala Ninja it shouldn't matter is just silly.

Normally I'd say being able to clear content isn't a hallmark of good tank design, but all of the tanks are so close to each-other in terms of offense and utility that it honestly is irrelevant. WAR has crazy good personal cooldowns and still has the best cheese skill in Holmgang considering its hilariously short cooldown, and DRK is basically unbreakable except he can put that shield on other people if he so chooses.

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

[Capn_Goggles]

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

I guess that's a fair point, the fight setups don't really lend themselves to holmgang cheese the same way Halicarnasty did for instance. That being said, I stand my statement about tanks being close enough together where complaining about tank balance is kinda silly. WAR does need some serious QoL improvements though... for instance I'm not sure why onslaught still has a beast gauge cost since it makes it by fear the LEAST usable gap closer when it used to be the more spammable one between it and DRK; keeping its short CD but not allowing it to have charges like the other tanks would work well enough. And there is no reason nascent flash shouldn't be self-targetable considering it lasts for so little time that the nanosecond you lose targetswapping is a non-insignificant portion of its duration and the bonus it applies to other people is laughable.

[ForteNightshade]

I guess that's a fair point, the fight setups don't really lend themselves to holmgang cheese the same way Halicarnasty did for instance. That being said, I stand my statement about tanks being close enough together where complaining about tank balance is kinda silly. WAR does need some serious QoL improvements though... for instance I'm not sure why onslaught still has a beast gauge cost since it makes it by fear the LEAST usable gap closer when it used to be the more spammable one between it and DRK; keeping its short CD but not allowing it to have charges like the other tanks would work well enough. And there is no reason nascent flash shouldn't be self-targetable considering it lasts for so little time that the nanosecond you lose targetswapping is a non-insignificant portion of its duration and the bonus it applies to other people is laughable.

Ultimately, I agree. While I do think Warrior could use a very small potency buff, it's more QoL changes that should be the focal point. You've touched on two but another two I want to mention are Storm's Eye and Direct Hit/Crits. The former has become needlessly cumbersome now. It should either be increased to a 40 second duration or even 60 ala Darkside. I wouldn't be opposed to having it removed entirely because unlike old Delirium, it isn't fun or rewarding to use. You then have the DhC, which make Warrior the only tank who should never touch Direct Hit. Not only does that mean you need different melds but Warrior cannot interact with three of the most prolific buffs in the game: Battle Litany, Battle Voice and Chain Stratagem. Honestly? If they removed this aspect, it likely solves the narrow damage discrepancy Warrior has.

[whiskeybravo]

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

I holmgang spears of paradise twice in 1s, 2x Rip Currents in 3s, and first Stonecrusher and 2 megaliths for 4s. That's 7 times in 4 fights, compared to my PLD co-tank who uses it HG 5 times in the 4 fights. I could do 3x Holm in 3s but my PLD uses HG on the first so he can have it back for black smokers later. Holmgang has plenty of value, maybe not AS valuable as before, but it's also easier to use now so I'll consider it a wash. It still has recast advantage regardless of whether a particular fight utilizes it.

"Oh but I need to use another CD for Stonecrusher".. And? It's free damage increase to have Vengeance and IR up at the same time. You're complaining about a CD you'd be using anyways because it happens so early in the opener..

You then have the DhC, which make Warrior the only tank who should never touch Direct Hit. Not only does that mean you need different melds but Warrior cannot interact with three of the most prolific buffs in the game: Battle Litany, Battle Voice and Chain Stratagem. Honestly? If they removed this aspect, it likely solves the narrow damage discrepancy Warrior has.

I was initially under the impression that WAR didn't benefit from raid buffs as much as the other tanks, but having kept an eye on it for the last few weeks - indeed as a WAR I get more from the group than my PLD does. Maybe it's our particular comp (DRG/MNK/RDM/DNC), but I get around 10% more damage from raid buffs than my PLD does. Crazy, I know. I figure it's mostly Brotherhood tipping the scales since it lines up perfectly with IR. Our DNC was going BRD for the first few weeks of prog, but then switched to DNC because it seemed to be better for the group overall, so I don't really have a comparison for BV.

[ForteNightshade]

I holmgang spears of paradise twice in 1s, 2x Rip Currents in 3s, and first Stonecrusher and 2 megaliths for 4s. That's 7 times in 4 fights, compared to my PLD co-tank who uses it HG 5 times in the 4 fights. I could do 3x Holm in 3s but my PLD uses HG on the first so he can have it back for black smokers later. Holmgang has plenty of value, maybe not AS valuable as before, but it's also easier to use now so I'll consider it a wash. It still has recast advantage regardless of whether a particular fight utilizes it.

"Oh but I need to use another CD for Stonecrusher".. And? It's free damage increase to have Vengeance and IR up at the same time. You're complaining about a CD you'd be using anyways because it happens so early in the opener..

And what are your other CDs doing? All three bosses barely do any auto attack damage. While that doesn't make Holmgang crap—nor did I imply it ever was—it does make it less impactful. What made Holmgang stand out is how many busters you could shrug off. That isn't to say it should have stayed that way. Frankly, it was too good in fights like O8S and O12S. But my point is you can't point to it and say how much of an advantage Warrior has now.

Not complaining. I'm pointing out Warrior is the only tank that requires a second CD when the others don't. While Vengeance lines up for the first Stonecrusher, it isn't always up for each one you take. And frankly, it's better used for the auto attacks in lieu of sitting on it afterwards.

I was initially under the impression that WAR didn't benefit from raid buffs as much as the other tanks, but having kept an eye on it for the last few weeks - indeed as a WAR I get more from the group than my PLD does. Maybe it's our particular comp (DRG/MNK/RDM/DNC), but I get around 10% more damage from raid buffs than my PLD does. Crazy, I know. I figure it's mostly Brotherhood tipping the scales since it lines up perfectly with IR. Our DNC was going BRD for the first few weeks of prog, but then switched to DNC because it seemed to be better for the group overall, so I don't really have a comparison for BV.

Yes, it's your comp. PLD gets nothing from MNK and RDM during its Holy Spirit window. You also have the best WAR comp outside of NIN as they all increase flat damage compared to BRD or DRG.

[whiskeybravo]

And what are your other CDs doing? All three bosses barely do any auto attack damage. While that doesn't make Holmgang crap—nor did I imply it ever was—it does make it less impactful. What made Holmgang stand out is how many busters you could shrug off. That isn't to say it should have stayed that way. Frankly, it was too good in fights like O8S and O12S. But my point is you can't point to it and say how much of an advantage Warrior has now.

Not complaining. I'm pointing out Warrior is the only tank that requires a second CD when the others don't. While Vengeance lines up for the first Stonecrusher, it isn't always up for each one you take. And frankly, it's better used for the auto attacks in lieu of sitting on it afterwards.

The other tanks can't get both of those Megaliths because they are exactly 4 mins apart. That frees up CDs to be used elsewhere for both tanks. I spread out my CDs in the opener and we swap at geocrush until Car mechanic, then they're back up for the 2nd stonecrushers which we split. Nothing is wasted in that regard. If it's really that big of a deal then have your other tank take the first hit and Voke to take the 2nd and 3rd hits with Holmgang. There ya go, no longer need 2 CDs for Stonecrusher.

Besides, the reason they changed Holmgang is because it had a significant advantage which contributed to the tank imbalance. So it's a little disingenuous to now say "look WAR doesn't have the advantage anymore".. Yea, that was the point.. But there remain a few spots where it can be advantageous, and we don't know what future fights are going to look like yet either.

Brotherhood is a wars best friend. Straight damage buff on same timer as IR with enough time to land some chaos in it as well. When more than 40% of our damage can fit in brotherhood windows, yes, you get massive amounts or raid buff damage. Remove that mnk and you will fall flat on your face.

The large crit rate buffs just do basically jack. But brother/TA are massive. Its bot thay raid buffs dont help, its that we are very polarized to specific raid buffs in a time when se is conciously reducing the focus on specific team comp synergy, war has strong specific job synergy.

Yea it's mostly Brotherhood and Embolden. I get 50-60 more from those than the PLD, but he gets 30-40 more from Chain and Litany.

[Satarn]

I was initially under the impression that WAR didn't benefit from raid buffs as much as the other tanks, but having kept an eye on it for the last few weeks - indeed as a WAR I get more from the group than my PLD does. Maybe it's our particular comp (DRG/MNK/RDM/DNC), but I get around 10% more damage from raid buffs than my PLD does..

It's 100% your comp. WAR benefits less from crit/dh raid buffs but more from flat damage ones, because of being so bursty. It's already been the case since 4.2 IR change and matters even more now with Inner Chaos. This causes the issue where WAR's pdps can vary greatly depending on comp - you'll do great damage with nin, mnk, rdm, dnc, ast, but do crap in comparison if you get drg, brd, sch, whm and 2 pure dps.

[BarretOblivion]

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

There is a difference between being viable and feeling like crap to play, and WAR is probably the worst feeling tank to play. DRKs have their own problems with the fact they became "WAR" in a sense but WAR had a pretty big issue where it felt like crap to play even in SB when IR was on cooldown. There were optimization and tools at their disposal however requiring a WAR to have thought or situational awareness of fights. They had the best tank stance in the game with the ability to go into it with 0 penalties, their DPS stance required knowledge of when to fell cleave and when to hold it for the passive crit buff increase. With the changes in ShB they lost both of these tool pieces that gave them depth leading to a tank that takes away any thought and gives out the damage that makes sense to it. The problem is, many WAR mains feel like this was forced upon their job when they didn't want that.
There is a reason why WAR is the least played tank right now, by a fairly signifcant margin. There is a reason players don't bring WARs into most of the savage fights except for Leviathan mainly because its the one fight where DRK/WAR comp makes it very easy to deal with as tanks.
That doesn't mean we can't be irritated at this.