Reasonable buff to war

[Lyth]

When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

WAR hasn't really changed that much since Stormblood. If you're finding it boring now, then it almost certainly was boring then, too. The only difference is that it has gone from being boring and mandatory, to being boring and optional. And that, my friends, is a true quality of life improvement.

[ForteNightshade]

When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

WAR hasn't really changed that much since Stormblood. If you're finding it boring now, then it almost certainly was boring then, too. The only difference is that it has gone from being boring and mandatory, to being boring and optional. And that, my friends, is a true quality of life improvement.

Except it isn't equality. Warrior is straight up inferior to the other three tanks, albeit only slightly. It has zero buff synergy due to guaranteed Direct Hi Crits, it has a weaker overall defensive kit than Paladin and flirts with being dead last in DPS. Add to that Onslaught abruptly became the worst gap closer (baring its range) and Storm's Eye, and it's hard to call Warrior being equal.

[Arrius]

Except it isn't equality. Warrior is straight up inferior to the other three tanks, albeit only slightly.

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

[ForteNightshade]

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

Why is it fine one tank has several clunky or downright unintuitive gameplay aspects while also doing the least damage? No one is saying Warrior has to be buffed back to meta status. They're simply pointing out flaws in its design. Saying that because it isn't laughably behind ala Ninja it shouldn't matter is just silly.

Normally I'd say being able to clear content isn't a hallmark of good tank design, but all of the tanks are so close to each-other in terms of offense and utility that it honestly is irrelevant. WAR has crazy good personal cooldowns and still has the best cheese skill in Holmgang considering its hilariously short cooldown, and DRK is basically unbreakable except he can put that shield on other people if he so chooses.

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

[Capn_Goggles]

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

I guess that's a fair point, the fight setups don't really lend themselves to holmgang cheese the same way Halicarnasty did for instance. That being said, I stand my statement about tanks being close enough together where complaining about tank balance is kinda silly. WAR does need some serious QoL improvements though... for instance I'm not sure why onslaught still has a beast gauge cost since it makes it by fear the LEAST usable gap closer when it used to be the more spammable one between it and DRK; keeping its short CD but not allowing it to have charges like the other tanks would work well enough. And there is no reason nascent flash shouldn't be self-targetable considering it lasts for so little time that the nanosecond you lose targetswapping is a non-insignificant portion of its duration and the bonus it applies to other people is laughable.

[ForteNightshade]

I guess that's a fair point, the fight setups don't really lend themselves to holmgang cheese the same way Halicarnasty did for instance. That being said, I stand my statement about tanks being close enough together where complaining about tank balance is kinda silly. WAR does need some serious QoL improvements though... for instance I'm not sure why onslaught still has a beast gauge cost since it makes it by fear the LEAST usable gap closer when it used to be the more spammable one between it and DRK; keeping its short CD but not allowing it to have charges like the other tanks would work well enough. And there is no reason nascent flash shouldn't be self-targetable considering it lasts for so little time that the nanosecond you lose targetswapping is a non-insignificant portion of its duration and the bonus it applies to other people is laughable.

Ultimately, I agree. While I do think Warrior could use a very small potency buff, it's more QoL changes that should be the focal point. You've touched on two but another two I want to mention are Storm's Eye and Direct Hit/Crits. The former has become needlessly cumbersome now. It should either be increased to a 40 second duration or even 60 ala Darkside. I wouldn't be opposed to having it removed entirely because unlike old Delirium, it isn't fun or rewarding to use. You then have the DhC, which make Warrior the only tank who should never touch Direct Hit. Not only does that mean you need different melds but Warrior cannot interact with three of the most prolific buffs in the game: Battle Litany, Battle Voice and Chain Stratagem. Honestly? If they removed this aspect, it likely solves the narrow damage discrepancy Warrior has.

[whiskeybravo]

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

I holmgang spears of paradise twice in 1s, 2x Rip Currents in 3s, and first Stonecrusher and 2 megaliths for 4s. That's 7 times in 4 fights, compared to my PLD co-tank who uses it HG 5 times in the 4 fights. I could do 3x Holm in 3s but my PLD uses HG on the first so he can have it back for black smokers later. Holmgang has plenty of value, maybe not AS valuable as before, but it's also easier to use now so I'll consider it a wash. It still has recast advantage regardless of whether a particular fight utilizes it.

"Oh but I need to use another CD for Stonecrusher".. And? It's free damage increase to have Vengeance and IR up at the same time. You're complaining about a CD you'd be using anyways because it happens so early in the opener..

You then have the DhC, which make Warrior the only tank who should never touch Direct Hit. Not only does that mean you need different melds but Warrior cannot interact with three of the most prolific buffs in the game: Battle Litany, Battle Voice and Chain Stratagem. Honestly? If they removed this aspect, it likely solves the narrow damage discrepancy Warrior has.

I was initially under the impression that WAR didn't benefit from raid buffs as much as the other tanks, but having kept an eye on it for the last few weeks - indeed as a WAR I get more from the group than my PLD does. Maybe it's our particular comp (DRG/MNK/RDM/DNC), but I get around 10% more damage from raid buffs than my PLD does. Crazy, I know. I figure it's mostly Brotherhood tipping the scales since it lines up perfectly with IR. Our DNC was going BRD for the first few weeks of prog, but then switched to DNC because it seemed to be better for the group overall, so I don't really have a comparison for BV.

[BarretOblivion]

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

There is a difference between being viable and feeling like crap to play, and WAR is probably the worst feeling tank to play. DRKs have their own problems with the fact they became "WAR" in a sense but WAR had a pretty big issue where it felt like crap to play even in SB when IR was on cooldown. There were optimization and tools at their disposal however requiring a WAR to have thought or situational awareness of fights. They had the best tank stance in the game with the ability to go into it with 0 penalties, their DPS stance required knowledge of when to fell cleave and when to hold it for the passive crit buff increase. With the changes in ShB they lost both of these tool pieces that gave them depth leading to a tank that takes away any thought and gives out the damage that makes sense to it. The problem is, many WAR mains feel like this was forced upon their job when they didn't want that.
There is a reason why WAR is the least played tank right now, by a fairly signifcant margin. There is a reason players don't bring WARs into most of the savage fights except for Leviathan mainly because its the one fight where DRK/WAR comp makes it very easy to deal with as tanks.
That doesn't mean we can't be irritated at this.

[Katie_Kitty]

Except it isn't equality. Warrior is straight up inferior to the other three tanks, albeit only slightly. It has zero buff synergy due to guaranteed Direct Hi Crits, it has a weaker overall defensive kit than Paladin and flirts with being dead last in DPS. Add to that Onslaught abruptly became the worst gap closer (baring its range) and Storm's Eye, and it's hard to call Warrior being equal.

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile. Compare that to DPS (12%) and healers (6%) and you can see that tanks are far and away the most balanced role in the game.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile.

Sure, if you're only looking at rDPS (which you shouldn't be).