So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Colt47]

Hahaha~

Potato chip raids does sound kinda neat though.
Content you can do when you don't wanna do content but just wanna use your game to socalize.

Did FF11 have these?
They would have come out during its lifetime, but over also heard of people being in a single boss fight so long they die of exhaustion.

WTF is Ventrillo?

Old VOIP program that was used back in the day. No idea if it is still around but I ended up using it back in 2004-2013. FFXI had stuff like it all over, just FFXI had the issue of being 100% you better make sure you at least partner up when going around the place. Leveling in FFXI was an adventure more than the end-game due to Matt fights, camping against bots for gear, fighting an inflated marketplace, etc.

[Greyhawk]

Yes, Vent is still around. I even host my own Mumble server at my house in case I need it to use if Discord goes down, or for other friends who don't use Discord.

I'm assuming Teamspeak is still around. Somewhere.

[Ralph2449]

Unfortunately, this little consequence has been very far-reaching in WoW. This endless quest for efficiency has gone too far, and now you're seeing people harassing people in low-level dungeons for not using the 'right' class, or not putting out enough DPS according to some DPS meter reader

Pretty much, I ve seen people complain about DPS in even something as rolfstomp as heroic dungeons where things are going perfectly fine cuz I was in with heroic-mythic gear only doing it for a quest yet some tryhard who clearly wasnt very good started complaining that the other DPS was doing 1/3rd of top dps, well of course they do, they arent geared to the teeth so even if they played flawlessly their damage is irrelevant and you dont need much dps for a heroic dungeon anyway since it can easily be done with only one decently geared dps.


Hell even for low m+ which dont need that much that attitude is present even though it is pretty low end and casual content.

And if you want gear, you NEED to do +15s which are filled with absolutely the worst tryhard metaslaves so good luck bringing and non meta class (And by gear I dont mean drops, I mean the casino system they have for the week)
I was doing m14s with a warlock early january and lock was seen as meta, tried assassination rogue and holy damn I would spend hours just trying to either join or make groups only for them to disband halfway, the metaslaving in WoW is so bad if you dont play meta it just makes it impossible to gear unless you started at the start of the xpac, the more time passes the more groups demand mythic gear for content that reward heroic/mythic gear

The game chose to focus completely on high end and cut gear progression for every other player at a pathetic 200ilvl while max ilvl is 226/233 so of course all casuals left in droves since that is also happening in pvp with boosters and boosted whales farming low geared players even in CASUAL content.

[Colt47]

SE has done a pretty good job keeping the toxicity down, but I also think there is a big difference in player base between WoW and FFXIV. Even on the worst day of the week FFXIV is pretty good. WoW started off okay in Mists of Pandaria when the RF system got introduced, but what killed it was Warlords of Draenor and beyond. Too much streamlining and the audience quickly dwindled down to whoever was the most hardcore.

[Colt47]

Figured I'd also add that I don't think the problem is the parser. Really it's more the accessibility of the content it is required for and the job design. DPS is basically the most important role in the group, so they got a lot of pressure on them to perform properly. They also are the most complicated of the jobs to run. How do I put this: Anyone can play a DPS job and do regular content, but when you step into a savage or even a normal roulette, their is the developer expectation and the community expectation.

Now the Dev expectation is what gets set by the boss mechanics. Savage is heavily about following a specific set of motions, and if you follow those motions you should beat the fight... assuming you meet a basic standard of damage. The basic standard of damage, while it seems like it shouldn't be that bad, is pretty bad because the optimal way to solve a mechanic may not include hitting the boss. Even if the throughput is possible via calculation, if those calculations are based upon all DPS jobs hitting their rotations at a certain clip, and the dodging strategy doesn't allow for the dps to hit the target, than it is easy to miss those numbers.

Now lets take into account most people leveling jobs do not actually play their jobs right. They hit end game they are already not doing the best damage possible because "well, I never understood this ability that well on mechanist so..." And thus they do suboptimal damage. Now you've got a dps that is doing under the level of damage required per person to succeed, and they might not be constantly doing damage through the fight, either.

I think that they overcomplicate the dps roles in this game because they want the role to feel interesting in casual content that can't kill you unless you really mess up badly. In the design space everyone is doing damage, and they figure that since damage is a fundamental role of all jobs, the ones dedicated to it need to do something extra to justify their specialization. Personally, I'm not for this approach because they already have a lot on their plate to manage. The melee has to manage positionals on top of going around hitting rotations properly, and they die all the time in savage. Ranged jobs definitely need help. I think maybe making them DPS that does mitigation might be for the best, and just cut down on the complexity to assure more people have time to actually do the mitigation functions.

[Lanadra]

Figured I'd also add that I don't think the problem is the parser. Really it's more the accessibility of the content it is required for and the job design. DPS is basically the most important role in the group, so they got a lot of pressure on them to perform properly. They also are the most complicated of the jobs to run. How do I put this: Anyone can play a DPS job and do regular content, but when you step into a savage or even a normal roulette, their is the developer expectation and the community expectation.

Now the Dev expectation is what gets set by the boss mechanics. Savage is heavily about following a specific set of motions, and if you follow those motions you should beat the fight... assuming you meet a basic standard of damage. The basic standard of damage, while it seems like it shouldn't be that bad, is pretty bad because the optimal way to solve a mechanic may not include hitting the boss. Even if the throughput is possible via calculation, if those calculations are based upon all DPS jobs hitting their rotations at a certain clip, and the dodging strategy doesn't allow for the dps to hit the target, than it is easy to miss those numbers.

Now lets take into account most people leveling jobs do not actually play their jobs right. They hit end game they are already not doing the best damage possible because "well, I never understood this ability that well on mechanist so..." And thus they do suboptimal damage. Now you've got a dps that is doing under the level of damage required per person to succeed, and they might not be constantly doing damage through the fight, either.

I think that they overcomplicate the dps roles in this game because they want the role to feel interesting in casual content that can't kill you unless you really mess up badly. In the design space everyone is doing damage, and they figure that since damage is a fundamental role of all jobs, the ones dedicated to it need to do something extra to justify their specialization. Personally, I'm not for this approach because they already have a lot on their plate to manage. The melee has to manage positionals on top of going around hitting rotations properly, and they die all the time in savage. Ranged jobs definitely need help. I think maybe making them DPS that does mitigation might be for the best, and just cut down on the complexity to assure more people have time to actually do the mitigation functions.

And this, all of it, is why I will never, ever touch Savage.

[Rilifane]

And this, all of it, is why I will never, ever touch Savage.

Don't be discouraged by that description.
The reality isn't nearly as dramatic. If you're trying e12s in full 510 then yes, there is a fair bit of pressure on everyone to do as much damage as possible. But in all other cases, no.
If people greed for uptime, positonals, additonal casts etc. they don't do it for the team or because they're worried about not meeting the dps requirement. They do it for themselves. You don't need greed to get a savage kill. You don't need to play your rotation perfectly.
You can get the savage kills even if everyone played way below what's possible. Nobody bats an eye if someone is grey as long as the party doesn't wipe repeatedly on enrage without people constantly dying. If a party has deaths, that's the first thing they try to fix... ironcally usually by reminding people to simply stay alive and screw uptime, greed and perfect rotation.

[Awha]

And this, all of it, is why I will never, ever touch Savage.

It is all about communication, if you join the PF fitting of your play style and skill it is normally gravy, even if people screw up. Though if you join the wrong type of PF then yeah you have a higher chance of running into people that will question your play, never respond due to poor logs, or silently remove ya among other things.

[Somnolence]

Figured I'd also add that I don't think the problem is the parser. Really it's more the accessibility of the content it is required for and the job design. DPS is basically the most important role in the group, so they got a lot of pressure on them to perform properly. They also are the most complicated of the jobs to run. How do I put this: Anyone can play a DPS job and do regular content, but when you step into a savage or even a normal roulette, their is the developer expectation and the community expectation.

Now the Dev expectation is what gets set by the boss mechanics. Savage is heavily about following a specific set of motions, and if you follow those motions you should beat the fight... assuming you meet a basic standard of damage. The basic standard of damage, while it seems like it shouldn't be that bad, is pretty bad because the optimal way to solve a mechanic may not include hitting the boss. Even if the throughput is possible via calculation, if those calculations are based upon all DPS jobs hitting their rotations at a certain clip, and the dodging strategy doesn't allow for the dps to hit the target, than it is easy to miss those numbers.

Now lets take into account most people leveling jobs do not actually play their jobs right. They hit end game they are already not doing the best damage possible because "well, I never understood this ability that well on mechanist so..." And thus they do suboptimal damage. Now you've got a dps that is doing under the level of damage required per person to succeed, and they might not be constantly doing damage through the fight, either.

I think that they overcomplicate the dps roles in this game because they want the role to feel interesting in casual content that can't kill you unless you really mess up badly. In the design space everyone is doing damage, and they figure that since damage is a fundamental role of all jobs, the ones dedicated to it need to do something extra to justify their specialization. Personally, I'm not for this approach because they already have a lot on their plate to manage. The melee has to manage positionals on top of going around hitting rotations properly, and they die all the time in savage. Ranged jobs definitely need help. I think maybe making them DPS that does mitigation might be for the best, and just cut down on the complexity to assure more people have time to actually do the mitigation functions.

Its SE design philosophy to have players figure out everything for themselves. Which naturally leads to situation where you must use outside sources to even learn how to play your job properly, because a lot of things are not intuitive at all. Concepts like oGCD weaving and delaying cooldowns for party buffs with proper opener are simple, but fundamental and you would not have a clue about them just from playing the game on your first job as a new player.

[Caitsithhh]

SE, can we just ban the people that are soft? Who gives a ffff about the way one person plays their game if it doesn’t impact you? The game is designed to beat a boss in a certain amount of time. Comes with the design. Suck it up buttercup