So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[RoyalBeef]

9 times out of 10 the casual player that's ok with spending 40mins in a dungeon is far more toxic than any person with a parser.

Pretty much this. Most of the times they're the passive aggressive types, or the rage quit type that leaves after something goes wrong, as if the party is the problem without njoticing that they themselves were the problem child all along and the party just had the courtesy to still keep going, so they're giving them the finger not once but even twice for being patient and investing so much time instead of kicking him right away lol.

[doofy]

Why would you want to ban them???

They should be an official part of the game! Where enrages are thing they need to introduce it so people can gauge their performance and see where to improve!

Most arguments only start because people who don't use them don't realise they are under performing and get defensive when someone tries to offer advice!

If it was there in black and white there wouldn't be a salty argument, they would realise they're doing it wrong and welcome even ask for advice from higher performing players!

[RoyalBeef]

Why would you want to ban them???

They should be an official part of the game! Where enrages are thing they need to introduce it so people can gauge their performance and see where to improve!

Most arguments only start because people who don't use them don't realise they are under performing and get defensive when someone tries to offer advice!

If it was there in black and white there wouldn't be a salty argument, they would realise they're doing it wrong and welcome even ask for advice from higher performing players!

Because there are players who insist they should be allowed to play how the want. You can show them the math of a Boss having X hp and the party having Y minutes to kill them, resulting in exact numbers each member has to deliver in order to clear, they simply don't care because they don't onsider that "fun" and rather play in a more "fun" way which apparently consists of using a single button rotation or autoattacking.
They know they're underperforming becuse they have been told countless times (that's why they start these threads in the first place ^^), but they'll rather get you banned than start playing high end content the way it is intended.

Now this wouldn't be an issue if they went to have "fun" in Sastasha. They can do that 24/7 all week long as far as I'm concerned. Problem is they bring that attitude to content where it just doesn't fly. 7 party members hving to pull 2k DPS more each just so 1 person can have "fun" and get a carry they didn't earn and then roll a 99 on loot as the icing on the cake is completely ok in their eyes.

[ForteNightshade]

9 times out of 10 the casual player that's ok with spending 40mins in a dungeon is far more toxic than any person with a parser.

I will never forget the Samurai my friend and I had in a Tsukiyomi farm several months back. I was literally 1k above him despite having been lying on the floor, dead, for a full minute. As for my friend, she was pulling almost double his numbers. We were on Ninja and Bard, respectively. After the third wipe or thereabouts I actually made a comment about how low the DPS was. Mr. 3k Samurai chimes in how much I suck and kicks me. When my friend says she's just going to leave, he rants and raves that she's garbage too. And it's her fault we're not clearing.

And yet we're the toxic, elitist raiders with the evil numbers. I have legit seen more toxicity from bad players than raiders, and I've pugged Savage.

Meaning, some people ignore if the heals were good or if the mitagation was good and judge a tank or healer strictly on the DPS they produced.

The primary reason this happens is because what player who knows people thinking this way is wrong will come out and say something when they know mentioning FFlogs can risk their account? Conversely, if we could bring up logs publicly. I could point out how the DPS whining at the Healer had five damage down stacks or the Healer themselves could note they had 15,000 HPS and very little overhealing. Which means they had to do a ton of healing either due to people eating mechanics or their co-healer not pulling their weight. Of course, not everyone would listen but you have to consider how many people simply stay silent because parsers are such a grey area.

I agree with Mr. Happy's response:

Most of the time when people have discussions about FFlogs, I find it to be very narrow minded . . . there are a lot of positive that come out of logs . . . but the way the information is used is unconstrued . . . taking things at face value, comparing jobs between roles, without actually digging a little bit deeper . . . it's kinda unfortunate that FFlogs has become that and there's this culture behind it that doesn't really understand how the tool is meant to be used, but it's kinda used as a D measuring content, you know, it's super disappointing to me cause it's a tool that could be so much more useful, but it's just used for kinda the worst things to be honest, you know.

Except Happy barely looks at FFlogs. I generally like him, however his response here is somewhat disingenuous. Currently, a 20% Monk actually contributes more rDPS than a 50% Ninja. That is, frankly, absurd. It essentially justifies locking out Ninja for Monk since you can literally get someone who has barely has any idea what they're doing and they'll still offer more than an average Ninja. Likewise, people have dug deeper. Range DPS is so low, there is very real consideration for double Black Mage. If Summoner gets a decent enough buff come 5.1, all three range jobs will suffer significantly. On the flipside of all this, you never see people locking out Warrior despite it technically being the weakest tank. Why? The damage difference so close no one cares.

While I normally agree locking out jobs is dumb. When the discrepancies are this drastic, it falls on the dev team for the imbalance mess they've created. What I cited above regarding Monk and Ninja should not be possible. And it shows the dev team needs to do better.

[Forever_Learning]

I
Except Happy barely looks at FFlogs. I generally like him, however his response here is somewhat disingenuous. Currently, a 20% Monk actually contributes more rDPS than a 50% Ninja. That is, frankly, absurd. It essentially justifies locking out Ninja for Monk since you can literally get someone who has barely has any idea what they're doing and they'll still offer more than an average Ninja. Likewise, people have dug deeper. Range DPS is so low, there is very real consideration for double Black Mage. If Summoner gets a decent enough buff come 5.1, all three range jobs will suffer significantly. On the flipside of all this, you never see people locking out Warrior despite it technically being the weakest tank. Why? The damage difference so close no one cares.

Happy said his comments would be controversial, and will put out a video discussing it, so Ill let him defend his remarks. Ill just say that my comment was about how people can use numbers badly rather than balance. I agree, people can use logs and parses in a bad manner.

At the same time, they can have worth.

Ultimately, I think the developers made the right decision. Because parsers have the potential for bad and good, they regulate the behaviour, how they are used, which does seem like a fair compromise.

[Forever_Learning]

I
Except Happy barely looks at FFlogs. I generally like him, however his response here is somewhat disingenuous. Currently, a 20% Monk actually contributes more rDPS than a 50% Ninja. That is, frankly, absurd. It essentially justifies locking out Ninja for Monk since you can literally get someone who has barely has any idea what they're doing and they'll still offer more than an average Ninja. Likewise, people have dug deeper. Range DPS is so low, there is very real consideration for double Black Mage. If Summoner gets a decent enough buff come 5.1, all three range jobs will suffer significantly. On the flipside of all this, you never see people locking out Warrior despite it technically being the weakest tank. Why? The damage difference so close no one cares.

Happy said his comments would be controversial, and will put out a video discussing it, so Ill let him defend his remarks. Ill just say that my comment was about how people can use numbers badly rather than balance. I agree, people can use logs and parses in a bad manner.

At the same time, they can have worth.

Ultimately, I think the developers made the right decision. Because parsers have the potential for bad and good, they regulate the behaviour, how they are used, which does seem like a fair compromise.

If I had a vote, I would just ban them entirely, but that may not even be realistic, so I understand the decision to regulate player behaviour instead

[ForteNightshade]

Happy said his comments would be controversial, and will put out a video discussing it, so Ill let him defend his remarks. Ill just say that my comment was about how people can use numbers badly rather than balance. I agree, people can use logs and parses in a bad manner.

At the same time, they can have worth.

Ultimately, I think the developers made the right decision. Because parsers have the potential for bad and good, they regulate the behaviour, how they are used, which does seem like a fair compromise.

If I had a vote, I would just ban them entirely, but that may not even be realistic, so I understand the decision to regulate player behaviour instead

By that same logic, should we ban Party Chat and Vote Abandon/Dismissal? Both can easily be abused or "used in a bad manner." I can literally kick you from a dungeon without a single word said and I'm protected under the guise of "difference of playstyle." Banning something because a minority will behave like morons isn't a good enough reason, especially when harassment policies would still be enforced. So if I railed on and on about how you're a terrible player, should uninstall and etc, I'd be rightfully reprimanded regardless if I posted logs or not.

No. The actual reason parsers are "regulated" is because SE likes coddling people. They don't want the Samurai pulling 7k DPS to feel bad even if it's Savage.

[RoyalBeef]

So if I railed on and on about how you're a terrible player, should uninstall and etc, I'd be rightfully reprimanded regardless if I posted logs or not.

And even then, who cares? "Oh no, someone on the interwebs said mean things." What do you do when a random 12 year old in the street calls you something mean? Call the cops?

[Forever_Learning]

By that same logic, should we ban Party Chat and Vote Abandon/Dismissal? Both can easily be abused or "used in a bad manner." I can literally kick you from a dungeon without a single word said and I'm protected under the guise of "difference of playstyle.

My personal desire for them to be banned is because I feel they impact more than just how people interact with each other.

On the topic of party chat or vote abandon; I feel it’s the behaviour that should regulated. If someone feels they were harassed by someone, they have the right to report it and have it investigated.

[Forever_Learning]

And even then, who cares? "Oh no, someone on the interwebs said mean things." What do you do when a random 12 year old in the street calls you something mean? Call the cops?

I think people are fine to criticize others, remove them from group, and say things like: sorry, you are holding back the team, we have to let you go

People are allowed to criticize, which is regulated for civility, but you are allowed to kick people or criticize them. I dont think you are forced to have them in your party either