More about the Betrayer and the Thirteenth [Spoilers]

[FaerieAura]

I've mentioned it here before, but I'm running a D&D campaign set in Norvrandt in the wake of the Flood of Light, and Cylva the Betrayer is a key figure in the story. I'm trying to at least get a few things straight regarding the Betrayer so that I know just how far I'm straying from the game's version of events

So, according to what I understand, the timeline of events is as follows:

1. Cylva, on the Thirteenth, was an Echo-blessed adventurer, who likely attempted to fight and failed to stop the falling of her world to the Darkness. She was eventually approached by Elidibus and told that her failure to stop the Flood of Darkness would eventually lead to the Flood of Light on the First, and told that it was her duty to help him rejoin the First because of her failure to save her own world.
2. Cylva is placed into stasis by Elidibus, along with Unukalhai and potentially other Echo-blessed from the 13th who he manages to convince to join him for various plots.
3. Cylva is awakened and enacts the plan to bring the First to the brink of destruction and despair, awakening the Warriors of Light and secretely acting as the Shadowkeeper.
4. She fights the Warriors of Light at Laxan Loft with the intent of killing them, but loses, and is spared; she instead 'wanders Norvrandt' and eventually is left to realize that the Flood of Light is going to happen regardless because the Warriors of Light kill the other Ascians on the First, tipping the scales in favor of Light.
5. The Warriors of Light on the First are convinced to travel to the Source, sacrificing their bodies, in a last ditch effort to forestall the Flood of Light from happening by Elidibus.

It also appears that Cylva and Unukalhai knew each other, either on the Thirteenth or during their time in stasis? Or I might be misremembering that. Anyway, are there any details that I'm missing or got incorrect?

I'm just wanting to ensure that I have these basic facts straight. If anyone cares, for my D&D campaign (which is, of course, glorified headcanon and not intended to be completely accurate to lore) Cylva is an active player in the wake of the Flood of Light, trying to halt the progress of the Flood once she realizes that the Ascians were completely wrong about 'saving the First', and that she's doomed yet another world. She doesn't mention it during the Role Quest because she doesn't want to portray her actions as heroic, because she doesn't see herself as a hero; she sees herself as a villain, a fool, and a coward. The D&D campaign is focusing on her efforts to help the D&D party establish Fort Jobb, end the threat of the remnants of her old followers from when she was the Shadowkeeper, and bring refugees to the relative safety of Lakeland from the outlying areas that are being absolutely destroyed by Sin Eaters. I thought she was a fascinating character and wanted to do more with her, so I did

As always, your help is appreciated!

[Brightamethyst]

[*]She fights the Warriors of Light at Laxan Loft with the intent of killing them, but loses, and is spared; she instead 'wanders Norvrandt' and eventually is left to realize that the Flood of Light is going to happen regardless because the Warriors of Light kill the other Ascians on the First, tipping the scales in favor of Light.

I don't think that's how that went.

IIRC Cylva was never trying to kill them. She actually wanted them to kill her, a very un-WoL act, thus keeping the balance just below the tipping point. Primed for rejoining without actually flooding. Ardbert and Co. refused to kill her and instead went off and killed the ascians, tipping the balance and opening the floodgates.

[MrThinker]

I don't think that's how that went.

IIRC Cylva was never trying to kill them. She actually wanted them to kill her, a very un-WoL act, thus keeping the balance just below the tipping point. Primed for rejoining without actually flooding. Ardbert and Co. refused to kill her and instead went off and killed the ascians, tipping the balance and opening the floodgates.

I actually think it was both. She wanted Ardbert to strike her down, so she could pull off a Zemus to Zeromus transformation and kill the heroes with that power.... which would indeed leave the world on the tipping point.

[Cilia]

From what I understand -

The key point where things didn't play out according to the Ascians' plan was when Cylva revealed herself to be "the Shadowkeeper" to Ardbert & co. The intent was to have him kill her, which would keep the balance tipped close enough to Light for a rejoining but not push it into Flood levels. However, against predictions Ardbert spared her and set his sights on the puppetmasters of the scheme - the Ascian Overlords Loghrif and Mitron - which manifested his own Crystal of Light. After felling the Ascians, there was no more anchor of Darkness on the First, which triggered the Flood.

I can't verify this because I haven't done the Healer / Ranged DPS quests necessary to unlock the final one (I'll get to it in a week or two by doubling via ACN), but this is my understanding of the situation.

I wish I still had a D&D group... playing vicariously through Critical Role is nice but disappointing...

[FaerieAura]

I don't think that's how that went.

IIRC Cylva was never trying to kill them. She actually wanted them to kill her, a very un-WoL act, thus keeping the balance just below the tipping point. Primed for rejoining without actually flooding. Ardbert and Co. refused to kill her and instead went off and killed the ascians, tipping the balance and opening the floodgates.

Ah, see, maybe this is where I was confused. I was under the impression that her goal was to raise heroes up and strike them down, priming the world for Light but keeping it just below the tipping point by slaying the heroes just as they had brought light just to the brink of absolute dominance. To the Ascians, she was merely a disposable tool, so if she died, the balance of the world wouldn't have been altered; she was no 'fundamental force of darkness', just a woman they had manipulated to suit their own ends, just as the Warriors of Light were proxies for Hydaelyn's will and therefore the Light which had grown blinding on the First.

In any case, her goal at Laxan Loft doesn't truly change my story all too much (thank goodness!), as her intentions to die or not to die ultimately didn't matter - it was her failure to actually rejoin the First to the Source, and instead the events that lead to the Flood of Light that ultimately led her to realize what her following the Ascians had done. She ultimately led the First to nearly the same fate as the Thirteenth by following the words of the same people who led the Thirteenth into darkness, and for that, she lives a life of regret and despair, desperately trying to atone for what she has done and her failures. She really wants to disappear before she screws up yet another time, but not before trying to give the world a bit of hope through my players' characters. That's the story I have planned for her, until the events of Shadowbringers and her spirit reforming as Cyella.

[Berethos]

I actually think it was both.

It's...a tad unclear, at least in the English localization. I suspect the other languages are less vague about her intent and design here, while the English has a couple things that kinda...sorta...contradict a little, depending on how you interpret her meaning.

Boxing it up for the benefit of those that don't want direct quotes from the quest.

So on one hand she talks about being tasked with "extinguishing their radiance forever" after being tasked with grooming them into becoming Warriors "brave and true," which would leave that world primed for a Rejoining and the Source ready for a calamity. On the other hand, she mentions that had he struck her down, then she would have the victory, as well as listing off the various sacrifices they had each made that led to them being chosen as Hydaelyn's Champions...including referencing the one Ardbert was to make, namely "...an adventurer with a heart overflowing with love for his dearest comrades...who must now bring his axe to bear against his own. By his sacrifice a Warrior born!"

That line seems to suggest that the sacrifice he was to make to become WoL was to take up arms and strike down this beloved comrade that had betrayed them, for the good of the rest of the First...which doesn't really match up with her describing her role as "extinguishing their radiance forever." It also doesn't match up with the idea that striking her down is the un-WoL thing to do...but then later it is, when she comments about attaining victory had he struck her down after defeating her...

And then he goes and defeats Mitron and Loghrif with the others, and in doing so becomes a WoL, tipping the balance?

The only thing I can think of that makes sense of that is that her line about him becoming a "Warrior born" was more theatrics aimed at how she had been grooming them than actual truth of how he would become a Warrior of Light in truth, and was meant to goad him into attacking her (and should she lose, killing her), but that she really was supposed to defeat them and didn't, and big hearted softie Ardbert spared her and went after the ones behind her, and this was the true actions of a Warrior of Light...

But I can't say that my interpretation of it is all that clear based on text from the quest.

[Anonymoose]

Tell me about the Shadowkeeper.
Why, only the greatest villain of her day. The mysterious architect of countless tragedies all across Norvrandt who finally faced justice at the hands of the Warriors of Light. The betrayer whose defeat set in motion events culminating with the Flood of Light. But you knew that much, didn't you? Before I took that name, I was known by another in the Thirteenth, a shard all but subsumed by Darkness. There I met with Ascians who convinced me that the only path to salvation was to embrace the Dark and journey unto this world. I had two objectives. One was to raise up heroes brave and true, worthy champions of the Light─Ardbert and the others. I would join them in their journey and shepherd them unto glory. Heroes need enemies to grow stronger, and so I sowed the seeds of discord. From Lakeland to Kholusia, from Amh Araeng to Il Mheg, I set in motion events that would forever change the lives of my comrades and countless others. My second objective was contingent on the first. I would confront the adventurers forged by hardship into Warriors of Light and strike them down at the height of their power, ensuring that the delicate imbalance between the primordial forces would be preserved just so. But in the end, I failed.

Tell me about the Warriors of Light.
Ardbert, Lamitt, Branden, Renda-Rae, Nyelbert. These are the names of the villains responsible for the Flood of Light which nearly destroyed our world. Lies and slander, of course. They were as much victims of fate as any of us. They traveled the length and breadth of Norvrandt, helping those in need, and for their deeds came to be known as heroes. But sometimes all it takes to destroy your reputation is a bad turn. And yet, despite everything that happened, they refused to give up. They cut a deal with the man in white and made one last desperate gamble. But you know that tale better than me, don't you?

[MrThinker]

/snip

Yes, you are right, going over the (English) quest dialogue again, it really makes it hard to understand.

/snip

so that part of her english dialogue is pretty straightforward and matches what she says in the quest:

The task was difficult, but the plan simple. Souls predisposed to Light, fledgling heroes in the making. I would bring together Ardbert and his comrades and groom them for a higher purpose.
I would play the part of comrade and guide their course, all the while laboring in secret to pit stronger and stronger enemies against them, until finally, once they were Warriors of Light brave and true, I would reveal myself as a Warrior of Darkness and extinguish their radiance forever.

The confusing part is what she says right after:

It was not to be. I had misjudged Ardbert. His comrades before him had made their sacrifices in turn, and as their mirror I had grown stronger for it. Had he but embraced his role and struck me down, victory would have been mine...
But Ardbert, dear Ardbert, would not forsake his heart.
In the end, he chose mercy. He chose love, and I was undone.

To me this reads that in order for her to win, she first needed to be struck down by Ardbert (and thus 'by his sacrifice' he would become a chosen of Hydaelyn), and then somehow come back to life stronger to kill them (Zemus to Zeromus transformation). But because Ardbert refused, the ritual she used to empower herself with darkness failed.

[TankHunter678]

To me this reads that in order for her to win, she first needed to be struck down by Ardbert (and thus 'by his sacrifice' he would become a chosen of Hydaelyn), and then somehow come back to life stronger to kill them (Zemus to Zeromus transformation). But because Ardbert refused, the ritual she used to empower herself with darkness failed.

I think its more a different idea. That being should Ardbert strike her down then he would have not become a WoL. She would have gotten the death she wanted for her own failure to protect her world, and she would have stuck to the plan for the most part in that the balance on the edge was maintained.

Which matches up with how Ardbert became a WoL by refusing to finish her and sparing her instead. If she could not defeat the WoL, then she just needed to make sure one did not become a WoL to finish tipping the balance.

[Ardox]

I think its more a different idea. That being should Ardbert strike her down then he would have not become a WoL. She would have gotten the death she wanted for her own failure to protect her world, and she would have stuck to the plan for the most part in that the balance on the edge was maintained.

Which matches up with how Ardbert became a WoL by refusing to finish her and sparing her instead. If she could not defeat the WoL, then she just needed to make sure one did not become a WoL to finish tipping the balance.

Thank for this, I feel you nailed it down. I was really confused because each of the other 4 WoL trial were shown as (and felt like) noble sacrifices. Since she allude that Branden could have failed his own trial, I think you hypothesis is plausible. Maybe «extinguishing their radiance» can work by making them outcasts/villains..


Which brings me to this.

Tell me about the Shadowkeeper.
/snip
strike them down at the height of their power, ensuring that the delicate imbalance between the primordial forces would be preserved just so.

/snip

I wonder how these primordial forces work exactly.
– Are the agents of Light and Darkness (Ascian/WoL) work like containers for those forces? That by getting stronger they give the corresponding primordial force more power/presence in the world? If so, wouldn't killing Ardbert and co redressing the balance completely?
– Are the agents work like simple catalyst? That each of their acts add a little more light or darkness on a giant cosmic scale?
– Where is the primordial forces energy/power coming from? Where is it stored? Is that energy finite and shared between the two primordial forces (adding to one takes from the other)?