People wanting a support class. Why?

[Allooutrick]

I think a support class could be amazingly fun. Like if they made dancer a support the rotation could use dances to maintain the support effect chosen, switch dance styles to change the effect, and have a simple dps rotation for solo content.

[Barraind]

But given how both the game and the playerbase go by the "best defense is a good offense" motto, I don't see it ever happening.

* Support can be a lot more than simply buffing DPS.

It's more that 14 doesnt support it.

We run 4 man parties (instead of 5 or 6) and 8 man raids (instead of 10/20/25/36/48/54/72), which means a support class has to be able to cover for a significantly larger chunk.

If you look at the difference between how 14 and WoW work, even comparing 8 man vs 10 man, having a class that isnt hyper-focused is almost an impossibility.

Where one system let's you run (or used to. I havent kept up) what is essentially half and half specs to fill slots (running a shadow priest which was basically half of a healer and half of a dps that also buffed several classes damage as a kicker, or a feral druid who could dps unless they had to tank something and also provided passable crowd control if necessary), the other doesnt really allow that to work.

Similarly, having something like an EQ enchanter or Bard wouldnt work unless you redesigned the game around what they are capable of doing and reliant on, if you dont change them significantly (at which point you might as well not bother in the first place).


The only place 14 works like a more traditional MMO in this sense is Eureka, and it fails there because it requires twitch gameplay in a system that consciously avoided the idea of twitch gameplay.


True support classes will probably never viable in a game that requires high APM (north of 30ish in an MMO), because support classes are designed around controlling APM and maximizing APM differences.

For reference, bards in EQ, who are ALWAYS acting and have 0 downtime have an APM of 26-30 depending on AA windows. CoH supports hit maybe 15 or 20 APM depending on cdr. An enchanter CC'ing 6 things may have an APM sub 20, as they MUST be not casting unless required.

Supports are just designed for completely different systems.

[SturmChurro]

An actual support class probably would never work the way this game is designed unfortunately. All that really matters is DPS (talking about support abilities that increase it), and some mitigation.

[Aladire]

Did't Yoshida say they would never implement a true support role such as bards in FFXI because they feel that if they balance it right, then it would be of 1 of 2 things:

1. It would become a required class as the debuffs + buffs would make it easier for people to survive screw ups.

OR

2. That it would make the dps you do have become more responsible because if they fail at something and mess up the rotation, then that is more dps loss than not having the buff and another dps player with you.

[HWalsh]

I guess SE can add one more party slot and force a support class in every group, that way a new class could be added and bard/dancer transform into true supports.

Keep the party slots the same, just make it:

1 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 1 Support

Or

2 DPS, 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 2 Support

[Xatsh]

Pure support or CC classes would never work in ffxiv due to the game design. They would have to up min party size to 5 to even attempt to do it. And yes Support would be a required class to have if they did it correctly.

Dnc in FFXIV is about as good as we are going to get a dps/support hybrid more or less.

As to "why?" it is a major archetype in mmos. You have basically 5 archetypes: Damage Dealer, Healer, Tank, Crowd Control, Buff (Support - depending on the game sometimes lumped in with CC). It wasn't until the WoW style mmo came around that the last 2 archetypes started going away or being combined with others.

Alot of people enjoy that kind of class. The ability to make the party stronger and more efficient was both enjoyable and important back in the day. Example Brd in FFXI increased everyones dmg output significantly, Reduced the tanks dmg taken significantly, worked as a battery keeping the mages mp up so there was no downtime, CCed packs incoming mobs so quicker kills and larger pulls were doable. Thier dmg output was well non-existant though. Rdm in FFXI was a support/CC hybrid class as well. Subpar healing, really subpar dmg. But best CC in the game with the ability to support heal, Haste to increase dps dmg, and refresh to keep everyone's mp topped off.

Back in the day in FFXI the setup for a standard party was Tank or War/Nin, Healer/Rdm, Support, Dps or support, Dps, Dps. In raids it was (Party 1) Tank, Tank, Healer, Rdm, Support, Support (Party 2 and 3) Dps, dps, dps, dps, Rdm/support, Support. No possible way to make it work in FFXIV's 4 man parties. In raids or 8man parties it very well could work... but would not work with the leveling aspect of the game. Example, Can you imagine soloing on brd if all they had was a dagger and auto attack + say a 100dmg a tick song debuff for dmg output.


Honestly it is a problem with the whole genre, with everything being homogenized. Support and Crowd Control classes were a good aspect of the game back in the day.

[Barraind]

Support and Crowd Control classes were a good aspect of the game back in the day.

they were more than that.

Crowd Control (be it rooting things, slowing and debuffing them, or hard CC's) is the third leg of the holy trinity


With the move away from more tactical approach of MMO's to a twitch based approach, it becomes harder and harder to utilize those aspects.

You cant really take 6 GCD's to debuff and slow 3 things, because at least one of them is probably dead by then.

[Gurney]

One of the fastest ways to get into a HNMLS back in 11 was having a BRD to 75 and knowing how to properly play the job. If you had a COR leveled and the dice for the rolls almost always needed in a PT was another way to get in. COR could do both DPS and Support at the same time. But 11 also had sub jobs which could change what you did also. RDM for example. Stun cannon was RDM/DRK, Refresh battery RDM/WHM, Nuke/Enfeebles RDM/BLM, if you were going to solo RDM/NIN. You also needed different gear sets for those setups also.

[MrKusakabe]

I think the most people do associate damage dealer (or their players respectively) as neanderthals that enjoy to club people to bloody debris and nothing more while drooling onto the keyboard.

Many other negative connotations follow coupled with a relatively dull backseat gameplay. If the tank and the healers do their thing, you can stand there and freely get your rotations trough - just like being driven around. You are neither the driver nor the co-driver that, I don't know, read the street maps or something helpful. Damage dealer are replacable and will shut up because of their long queue, easily being abused. To escape from that, I can imagine it helps to have something to offer instead of it being a one-way situation.

I am very lucky that my favourite profession has two very beautiful and helpful spells to give back some to the "true" carriers of the run. And to be honest, I love Red Mage in that matter, because the design is not being carried away too much off of the main purpose - Damage - but still viable enough to be needed ("rdm raise plz"). But I can totally understand why people would want that though.

Sincerely,

[Allegor]

I agree with you in that regard but I've seen a lot of RDM that wouldn't throw a single raise, sometimes even when both healers died. I'm by no means the best RDM, but if people are dying left and right - specially the healers - I'm dropping the dps and help out - that's why we even have a raise and heal to begin with.