Something doesn't add up regarding the connection between Amdapor and Norvrandt...

[Sylvain]

Regarding the time dilatation, in French it's said with a nuance that it can go either way. Either faster or slower, and that after going recently faster, it slowed down to somewhat match the time flow on the source.

However, even if time can effectively go slower, it would have to go really slow for really long, which indeed doesn't add up all that well.

[Ardox]

In regards to the Amdapori, I'm on board (and have mentioned as such in the past) with the folks who don't think that the mages of Amdapor witnessed the Sin Eaters on the First. They saw them somewhere else. Perhaps another shard tipped dangerously close to a Flood, but was reined in by the Ascians because the Source wasn't ready for a Rejoining. Perhaps the Sin Eaters occurred naturally in a Light-rich environment, and were mistaken by the Amdapori as being from a "higher plane" - the folks on the First made this mistake themselves, after all, originally believing Sin Eaters to be holy beings come to punish them for their sins. Another possibility, perhaps they were manufactured deliberately by way of Light-aspected experimentation, much as the Allagans created artificial Voidsent.

It's possible that wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey shenanigans allowed the Amdapori to peek at present-era First, but I think it's more likely they saw Sin Eaters elsewhere.

Another possibility is that there really IS a light-suffused plane that is apart from all the fourteen shards, but I find that less likely than the time shenanigans, to be honest. It's still on the table, however! The writers have many avenues they could take, if they ever bother to explain the situation.


Yes, this is correct, and was confirmed in the MSQ. We are all well aware that it runs contrary to the REAL LIFE meanings of Umbral and Astral (the former meaning "shaded" which lends itself more to darkness, and the latter meaning "starlike" which lends itself better to light). In-game Light is Umbral, and Darkness is Astral.

Actually, those 2 interpretations are wrong.

Umbral / Astral is a different axis than Light / Darkness

[ObsidianFire]

Umbral / Astral is a different axis than Light / Darkness

As of ShB, this isn't correct anymore. It would be more accurate to say that Umbral/Astral is the effect of the Light/Darkness cause.

Light and Darkness are like two poles of a magnet. Light pulls aether into a Static State and Darkness pulls aether into an Active State. On the Source, Umbral is associated with Static Aether, and is therefore caused by Light. Darkness is associated with Active Aether and is therefore caused by Darkness.

On the 1st Shard, Umbral and Astral aren't even terms people use to describe aether aspects. Instead they use Light and Dark to describe what causes aether to be in the state it is in.

I think it's wrong to say that Umbral and Astral are mislabeled when they were never really identified with Light and Darkness in the first place. They are terms that describe an effect Light and Darkness cause and the effect they are describing is something that does happen. It's just that the cause of Umbral and Astral aether was never named on the Source. Probably because the Source has never seen a time where Light and Dark have been universally out of balance to the degree that the 1st Shard did.

[Ardox]

/snip

I'm pretty sure they are still 2 different poles. I'm referring to this article

Koji Fox: So, you have the elements—and it’s still six elements, there are no newly-discovered ones. Those elements have charges—umbral and astral. If something has “umbral energy”, it is one or more of those elements, individual or combined. So if elements have an umbral charge, it can be said that they are “umbral energies”. That’s where those terms come from, “astral energies” and “umbral energies” are not individual things, it’s a blanket term. Light and Dark are not elements, but they are energies…in a different sense. They are not elements, they are not of the elements, and they are not astral or umbral. It’s a different type of energy. You might see a Light and Dark sprite and think, oh, they must be elemetals, but those are made of an entirely different form of energy.

[ICountFrom0]

Diabolos' history in the Source is well documented. He's a high-ranking Voidsent summoned by Mach to unleash on Amdapoor near the end of the 5th Astral Era. The Amdapoori succeeded in sealing him up until you breach his wards at which point he leaves Amdapoor. The same thing goes for Feridad, the last boss of Amdappor Keep (Hard). Later, they would both turn up in Dun Scaith. Feridad would finally be defeated there and Diabolos would absorb Scath's power and be defeated.

Which now makes me wonder, was Diabolos originally a Darkwarden?

He was orriginally a hero of the 13th. But he ate primals until he corrupted.

Therefore, the possibilities that allow Amdapor to see a Forgiven Cruelty Sin Eater would be as follows:

- Future Sight, as mentioned.

- Sin Eaters somehow existed on the First when the Flood of Light began, but declined to show themselves to the general populace for some reason. And at that time, the passage of time on the First was effectively a time stop while thousands of years passed on the Source. (This contradicts out-of-game lore interviews given prior to Shadowbringers, ie that a "proper" Flood of Light is just blank nothingness, but those could always have been retconned.)

- Time can flow backwards relative to Source and Shard.

Or, the production of sin eaters is a "natural science" part of the under pinning of reality. If you get too much darkness you turn into a voidsent. If you turn too much light, you turn sin eater. Could the other less primal elements also have effects at the absolutes? Maybe.

[JeanneOrnitier]

Could the other less primal elements also have effects at the absolutes? Maybe.

We've seen what overexposure to water aether looks like from Leviathan's Drowned followers, so I'd say yes.
It really makes me interested in seeing what the Shards that fell to water and fire were like in their last days. Or the air one, that'd be really interesting to see.

[geekgirl101]

No, Umbral is stasis, which is Light.

Astral is creation and Darkness.

This is stated... in the MSQ, in Il Mheg...

I remember Urianger saying something about that when he pointed at an elemental chart and asked whether we had gotten it all wrong since the people of Norvrandt saw Light as destructive and Dark as peaceful.

[Nightsword]

The Source and any shard can produce native Sineaters, Voidsent, and any elemental aspected beings. As they are created by having a being's aether forcibly unbalanced in one direction. The whole of Eureka was to drive this point home as you further progressed into the island. As "light", "dark" and elemental monsters existed there, transformed from the native inhabitants of the island. It is incorrect to wholly say that Sineaters are only native to the First and Voidsent to the Thirteenth.

Given that both likely existed during the calamity that destroyed the Ancient's civilization it's quite possible that the people of Amdapor glimpsed into the past and it was a long forgotten memory from before the Sundering that they took inspiration from and not any timey-whimy shenanigans regarding the First.

[ObsidianFire]

The whole of Eureka was to drive this point home as you further progressed into the island. As "light", "dark" and elemental monsters existed there, transformed from the native inhabitants of the island.

This is not what is happening in Eureka.

Eureka got dunked in the Aetherial Sea/Lifestream which infused the island with a lot of aether. So much aether that it started attracting Voidsent from the Void and the Source. Just look at any of the FATE descriptions and it's all either Voidsent from the Void or monsters that got exposed to aether and became more dangerous as a result.

The previous inhabitants of Eureka all got dunked in the Lifestream which killed them since that is where souls go when they die. When Eureka, the primal, forced the Isle of Val out of the Lifestream, those souls didn't leave the Lifestream with it.

[Nightsword]

This is not what is happening in Eureka.

Eureka got dunked in the Aetherial Sea/Lifestream which infused the island with a lot of aether. So much aether that it started attracting Voidsent from the Void and the Source. Just look at any of the FATE descriptions and it's all either Voidsent from the Void or monsters that got exposed to aether and became more dangerous as a result.

The previous inhabitants of Eureka all got dunked in the Lifestream which killed them since that is where souls go when they die. When Eureka, the primal, forced the Isle of Val out of the Lifestream, those souls didn't leave the Lifestream with it.

There is plant and animal life on the island, both and monsters count just the same as being able to be transformed in one aether based direction as seen in effect on the first with the lesser Sineaters formally being animals and monsters. Plus there is the case that the first three zone bosses were likely humans before the island was taken in the Lifestream before being turned into or merged with elemental monsters.