Is monk fun?

[Shurrikhan]

If you don't mind a class even shallower than SAM with its core mechanics reduced into something a further QoL change away from complete removal, then I guess it could be okay.

[Silver-Strider]

If you don't mind a class even shallower than SAM with its core mechanics reduced into something a further QoL change away from complete removal, then I guess it could be okay.

If said mechanic had any depth to begin with, you might have had a point. In terms of class mechanics, that of GL and Huton are both meaningless in doing anything but allowing MNK and NIN to be on par with other classes; You could literally make both GL and Huton into Traits and it would not change a thing for MNK or NIN. Mechanics like BotD and Enochian on the other hand, have very clear reward for maintaining their buffs. You could argue that GL and Huton help to build up Chakra and Ninki quicker but considering that you can still get those rewards without those mechanics, its hard to make much of an argument that those core mechanics are pretty lackluster as a whole. The only time GL was actually something more than a "keeping up with the Joneses" type mechanic was during the Tornado Kick rotation period in which GL could actually be used as a build up mechanic towards Tornado Kick in a semi-similar fashion as Geirskogul (sp?) and Foul, even if there was more to it than either one of those skills, but that died off going into ShB. So a QoL improvement to something that is now back to nothing but a simple "maintain or you fail" mechanic is better than just watching as time and time again we are punished for not having the proper tools to maintain our core mechanic as our 5 maintenance skills all fail to do their damn job in a practical sense.

Do I come off as stand off-ish? Absolutely because these QoL improvements were long overdo but now everyone and their mother is swearing, hand to god, that MNK is OP and needs to be nerfed now when the issue is more of the lack of balance on SE's part since they never took into account MNK with near 100% GL uptime. I mean, had they reworked MNK with these QoL improvements in place prior to ShB's and had adjustment MNK's potency accordingly, MNK might have gotten some actual depth to its rotation rather than 1-2-3 with oGCD in between and to be fair, there's still room for improvement on MNK considering how niche SSS and Tornado kick are, to say nothing of Fist Stances as well.

[Shurrikhan]

The only time GL was actually something more than a "keeping up with the Joneses" type mechanic was during the Tornado Kick rotation period in which GL could actually be used as a build up mechanic towards Tornado Kick in a semi-similar fashion as Geirskogul (sp?) and Foul, even if there was more to it than either one of those skills, but that died off going into ShB. So a QoL improvement to something that is now back to nothing but a simple "maintain or you fail" mechanic is better than just watching as time and time again we are punished for not having the proper tools to maintain our core mechanic as our 5 maintenance skills all fail to do their damn job in a practical sense.

Then

1. Don't kill the TK rotation. Tune it so it's less clunky and less obligatory. GL can thereby actually be something more than a once-per-instance wind-up punishment for playing MNK.
2. Fix the maintenance tools themselves and don't remove tools by which to rapidly regain GL.

And look at that, no need or even significant temptation to reduce GL to a mere stain of a mechanic.

[Silver-Strider]

Then

1. Don't kill the TK rotation. Tune it so it's less clunky and less obligatory. GL can thereby actually be something more than a once-per-instance wind-up punishment for playing MNK.
2. Fix the maintenance tools themselves and don't remove tools by which to rapidly regain GL.

And look at that, no need or even significant temptation to reduce GL to a mere stain of a mechanic.

The Tornado Kick rotation was going to be DOA with the introduction of GL4 and realistically speaking, the only real change between ShB rotation and the Tornado Kick rotation is that PB went back to being a 2 minute CD and we lost Steel Peak and Howling Fist. Anataman replaced RoW in gaining an early GL stack in the opener and PB can still be used for the Tornado Kick rotation but the extra speed of GL4 is what makes it the DPS gain over Fist of Fire + GL3 and we can't really use the Tornado Kick rotation as a result, at least not optimally (personally not a fan of using PB for Dragon Kick>Bootshine spam but it is what it is).

Simply saying "fix the maintenance tools" is easy but actually doing it without streamlining GL is not. You can make RoE refresh GL upon activation in a similar method as BotD but then it just becomes a better SSS so then you need to rework that. There's no hope for Tornado Kick at this point as GL4 has completely killed that skill dead outside of the niche moments of impossibly long transitions (I'm looking at you Eden Prime) and it just needs a flat out rework as well. Anatamon on the move would be no different than Form Shift in its current state. How exactly would you fix GL maintenance in a way that doesn't simply boil down to it being MNK's Transpose given its current tools? SE had 6 YEARS to figure out something and they've ultimately admitted defeat and made it just Form Shift to maintain GL with skills that are now mostly filler until next Expansion sees them on the cutting room floor like so many skills before them.

[Shurrikhan]

...

You're trying to make it sound like TK's removal was unavoidable, but they went out of their way to kill GL, specifically changing it from costing 3 stacks to all stacks, on top of removing Riddle of Wind and doubling the recast time of Perfect Balance. They burned it, buried it, and nuked it.

Technically, the maintenance skills were all sufficient to the same extent as BotD was. Mere QoL improvements to RoE were all that were really useful. Don't require Fists of Earth and make RoE trigger on attack received rather than damage taken, such that it couldn't be screwed over by shielding. There. Done. Only two fights could cost me my GL3 in SB because of their lacking raid damage. They need only have each fight deal at least some insignificant amount over the jump as did all the other fights, and we've got GL from the fight's start to the fight's end.

"Replaced" really should be reserved for something that does at least half as good a job as the thing it's "replacing". When it comes to GL growth, Anatman does not. It's reliant on server ticks -- which you have only your HP bar to track, as player-benefiting server ticks are not timed precisely to DoT ticks -- and is available only half as often and at greater sacrifice.

"Only" likewise probably shouldn't be used for describing the loss of half of our rotational damaging oGCDs or core mechanics.

You're defending current design and admitting it needs a flat out rework in the same breath, all while acting as if GL can only either be completely lost to too great of punishment or reduced to the maintenance-spam it's become. Why?

[Silver-Strider]

Why?

BotD: Instant cast with a 20s duration upon activation that you could extend to 30s max. 30s CD
RoE: Refresh GL on taking damage. 60s CD
Anataman: Freezes and Refreshes GL. Can't move during the channel. 60s CD
SSS: Refresh GL upon hitting target. GCD skill
Perfect Balance: Ignore Forms entirely to build up GL. 2 minute CD (60s CD in SB)

Not a single one of those skills is comparable to BotD on any level at all. You even claim that you would still lose GL even if RoE would apply on being hit vs taking damage while DRG can potentially have almost double the duration of GL with BotD and can still refresh it before it runs out due to the CD on it being half the duration of any of MNK's maintenance tools so on both a practical and technical level, BotD is far and away the better tool for maintenance in comparison any of those on MNK.

Whether or not Anataman is better or worse than RoW is irrelevant. They both are used to accomplish the same thing, which is build up GL quicker and while Anataman is reliant on server ticks, RoW required 2 shoulder tackles to build up GL. RoW was awful for transitions when there's nothing to hit but Anataman works great there. They're different in their method but functionality was the same hence why I used "replaced" since you can do just that.

RoF had a slow down that made double weaving oGCD necessary. That is no longer the case and thus the extra oGCD aren't necessary anymore and while I'll miss Howling Fist and Steel Peak, I can live with their removal so long as we aren't handicapped for it, which has been rectified now.

I'm not defending current design, I'm arguing that GL sucks as a core job mechanic as it added nothing to MNK but at least the QoL improvements made it less of a chore to manage. The class will never be as entertaining as it once was during HW, when I personally found it to be the most fun, but anything to make the class flow better is a plus from me and if SE is done with throwing MNK nothing but GL management skills than maybe the class can actually see some actual progress to its rotation.

[Rockette]

If you don't mind a class even shallower than SAM with its core mechanics reduced into something a further QoL change away from complete removal, then I guess it could be okay.

Ah, jaded monk friend. I recognize your name.

We fought, we got changes to Monk. It's still sorely lacking the care and attention other classes get every expansion but at least levelling will not be like dragging your own eyeballs over coal for new people like it was for us.

Is monk fun?
I think the person saying if you're new to it then probably - is correct. The rest of us have been hitting this same rotation for 6 years.