Enrage timer raid design is causing all the problems

[Rockette]

The community feedback to Baldesion Arsenal was pretty good, people felt the first time like doing a real raid and not a trial. At the same time you can still see that they seem to scared to apply that feedback to new content and once again serve the old raid formula. I don't want wow Version of ff14 either, but the huge dps dependency with no way of recovering once you had too many deaths is demotivating and tiring. E.g.: I don't want to feel like that I have to wipe because my top dps player just died in the opener.

I played almost all savages when they were live and I think the time invest is still pretty big when you arent a midcore/hardcore raider because you still have to beat the dps checks, even if they are often easy. Especially when you try to pug it. The difficulty should be the ability to clear the mechanics, just like in ultimate, then nobody would look at the damage anymore, atleast you can kill it.

There are many ways to make a fight difficult outside of looking at the damage numbers. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes when they design the raids. Elements like in shinryu where you attack the tail to deal a fix amount HP to the Boss once you kill it, or golden bahamut where you get a huge dmg buff for staying alive and completing the mechanics correctly. Or boss fights that have restricted rezz ability like in BA, that's all ways to spice fights up and reward playing mechanics correctly. It would be something else then the standard HP sponge with enrage.

The Baldesion Arsenal CONTENT was great. The entry to get in, however, was horrific.

[ForteNightshade]

Even if the fight would have a low enrage timer, you can still force dps player to be in the team by introducing the right mechanics. A7s (rolespecific jails) or A13s (time gates) as examples. This problem of only tank/healer parties is not really big.

We also have a duty timer so 24h battles like in ff11 aren't possible.

Just dealing damage by doing your rotation correctly is somewhat of a skill but having a few deaths shouldn't make it impossible to clear it imo. Would be better if there is a way to recover the fight. We don't really have any use of cc either in savage, it's just focused so much on dmg. 24man and BA are like what savage should be....

Except a few deaths doesn't make any fight impossible unless you're doing it week 1. And the reason for that is you're tackling Savage at the lowest possible ilvl. You can have people die in Titan now and still make the enrage without much of an issue provided you're decent players. BA has enrages, you just don't often them because it's very generous or one mistakes wipes too much of the group. I loved BA, personally, but you weren't recovering much if someone stacked the meteor and wiped out two whole alliances. At that point, the run was usually over.

So it boils down to enrages, near constant insta-wipe mechanics or making every fight have very harsh DPS checks to ensure you actually need raw damage. Ultimately, they all lead down the same road.

[Pepsi_Plunge]

Just dealing damage by doing your rotation correctly is somewhat of a skill but having a few deaths shouldn't make it impossible to clear it imo. Would be better if there is a way to recover the fight. We don't really have any use of cc either in savage, it's just focused so much on dmg. 24man and BA are like what savage should be....

Well, I don't know about BA but there are also DPS-checks and Enrages in 24man. The first boss at Dun Scaith actually had a time limit/enrage as after some time all quarters are filled with no safe zone left, wiping the floor. And the Adds at Thundergod Cid in Orbonne were nearly impossible to kill in time if you had some dead people at this stage, especially in the first weeks after release. I can't remember how much times we wiped in Orbonne just because of the DPS-check at Cid alone.

[Enla]

Well, I don't know about BA but there are also DPS-checks and Enrages in 24man. The first boss at Dun Scaith actually had a time limit/enrage as after some time all quarters are filled with no safe zone left, wiping the floor. And the Adds at Thundergod Cid in Orbonne were nearly impossible to kill in time if you had some dead people at this stage, especially in the first weeks after release. I can't remember how much times we wiped in Orbonne just because of the DPS-check at Cid alone.

Or the ice crystal phase, if by some miracle your pug party happened to pass all the other obstacles to get to the homestretch of the fight. Week 1: Thundergod Cid still gives me nightmares to this day.

[Pepsi_Plunge]

Or the ice crystal phase, if by some miracle your pug party happened to pass all the other obstacles to get to the homestretch of the fight. Week 1: Thundergod Cid still gives me nightmares to this day.

There was also a DPS (and healer)-check at Ultima on the elevator-plattform, now that I think about it. But they usually don't fail unless most of the party doesn't know that there actually is one to begin with.

[Metalwrath]

I honestly dont consider enrage timers to be the cause of all problems.Plenty of raid groups have always gone for the highest dps to deal with mechanics for less amount of time.The problem lies within the lack of viable strategies with different jobs for end game content.