Thread: 5.0 Wind-Up Openers

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

This is incorrect: Technical takes 7 seconds and Standard takes 5 seconds. Technical and Standard are both on the GCD (they are not oGCDs), but when you use them, they lower your base GCD to a 1.5s GCD. Meaning you have 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Standard (for a total of 5s) and 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Technical (for a total of 7s). The Step and the Finish are both bound by the 1.5s GCD change, so the entire process of a Standard Step and a Technical Step are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

No offense, but you don’t even have DNC unlocked. Why are you attempting to theorycraft on it?

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

I don’t know much about MNK and I won’t comment on it purely on that fact. However, have you tried to speak with actual MNK theorycrafters about if your guide is viable or not? Have they provided you with feedback? I’m not talking about just random MNKs, but the MNKs that do the number crunching; the best MNKs in the game. I highly recommend you speaking with them about what you have written.

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch!

I guess I’m coming from the point of view that theorycrafters have already figured out the most mathematically viable and most mathematically optimal options for openers and rotations. And, again, I also think that you need a deeper understanding of things before you begin to theorycraft. The mistakes I have pointed out just with 3 of the jobs are fairly basic things that all theorycrafters should know. There may be more that I missed or didn’t comment on. So I really think you should take Kitfox’s offer to join The Balance and probe the minds of the theorycrafters in there before further number crunching and guide writing is done.

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

And yeah, I did state that a lot of this is touchy-feely, so I appreciate the feedback!

I think this is the biggest flaw: theorycrafting isn’t done around feeling; it’s done around math and numbers. Optimization is all about what is mathematically optimal to do, not what “feels good” to do or what a particular player wants to do.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t know much about MNK and I won’t comment on it purely on that fact. However, have you tried to speak with actual MNK theorycrafters about if your guide is viable or not? Have they provided you with feedback? I’m not talking about just random MNKs, but the MNKs that do the number crunching; the best MNKs in the game. I highly recommend you speaking with them about what you have written.

From what I know, he actually did consult some of our monks, he was given feedback and numbers, even simulated dps differences for the rotations and reasons why they were inferior, but all of that was readily ignored and he continued to call their guide "perfectly viable."

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Again, why is it required that raid buffs go out as early as possible? The way I have it mapped out it the beginning, TA still comes out while most raid buffs are up, with Embolden being the exception due to how it works.

Using MCH as an example, if TA comes out at 10 secs and it takes at least 15 seconds to build up enough battery gauge, and it takes 5 seconds for the Automaton to start attacking, how are you getting Pile Bunker off within the TA window?

You don't get a Pile Bunker in the first Trick Attack, you get it in the second one. This is why delaying raid buffs is bad, by the time you get one delayed use with your schedule, more optimal timings get a second use much faster while also doing much higher personal dps.

Originally Posted by Kitfox

From what I know, he actually did consult some of our monks, he was given feedback and numbers, even simulated dps differences for the rotations and reasons why they were inferior, but all of that was readily ignored and he continued to call their guide "perfectly viable."

I see. If that is true, then that is unfortunate.

OP, I highly recommend you take what these players have to say seriously and to heart. I know that they work really hard on everything they do, and they probably know more about these jobs than you and I do. So I definitely don’t think the way to go about diving into theorycrafting is to ignore the theorycrafters and their math.

I also think you should play the jobs before you attempt to theorycraft them. Again, I mean no offense, but you haven’t even unlocked DNC, yet you’re trying to argue with me about optimal play and how the job actually works when I have been playing it since the expansion dropped and reading up on every bit of information the DNCs release that I can find. My performance may not be as great as theirs and I have a long way to go towards optimizing, but I like to think that I understand the theory and how the job plays a bit more than someone who hasn’t unlocked it.... I won’t attempt to speak on in-depth things about jobs I don’t know about purely because it’s likely I’d be wrong about it. So I really think you should consider doing the same.

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

This actually caught me in the beginning to. When it comes to weaponskills, the math is reversed. So for example, if your GCD were 2 seconds and you multiplied it by 5, the number you get is actually when the 6th GCD comes out. So with Standard Step, it goes 1.5+1+1= 3.5. That's when you can use Standard Finish. Same thing goes for Tech Step/Finish.

Technical is 7s and Standard is 5s for the entirety of them. As you cannot use any GCDs until your Standard Finish and Technical Finish resolve due to them being bound to the GCD—and since we are talking about GCD skills here with Flourished procs and Saber Dance—that is why I have stated that the durations are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

I’m not even discussing the math here—I know that the hit for SF and TF come before the 5s and 7s (at 3.5s and 5.5s, respectfully). I’m talking purely about the duration of the skills themselves, which I think is important to note provided the conversation we were having about Flourish, utilizing the Flourished procs, and Saber Dance utilization.



EDIT: And I have hit the posting limit:

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Yes. It is important. Which is why I started that it takes at least 8 seconds to use all four Flourish moves back to back.

But you also ignored that you have to fit in a SF into your TF windows (eating up 5s of time), and that you also have to keep an eye on Saber Dance and use it so as to not overcap on Esprit, which can generate at an alarmingly high rate during TF with any party that is competent at what they do. The whole point I was making was that, by delaying your Flourish, you are inviting the potential of pushing Flourished procs outside of your major burst window (Technical/Devilment), which is a DPS loss. Your opener invites blatant delay of the skill compared to the standard opener that the DNC theorycrafters have provided, which is why I think it’s inefficient.

The standard opener for DNC is as follows:

-15s: Standard Step > Step > Step
-2s: Potion
On pull: Standard Finish > Technical Step > Step x4 > Technical Finish > Flourish > Rising Windmill > Devilment > priority based on (in order of priority): Saber Dance, Standard Finish, Flourished Procs (Fountainfall, Reverse Cascade, and Bloodshower) while weaving in FD3s and FD1s.

The only variant of this is if you have Dance Partnered with a DRG or a NIN, which favor a Devilment before you start Technical because it lines up better with their burst as opposed to the Devilment after Rising Windmill. As DNC is a support job, you adjust to support your partner with Devilment usage.

It’s also worth to mention that this opener lines up with all standard job openers so that Technical falls in line with both raid buffs and any personal buffs jobs may have, allowing them to have a strong burst.