Sujet : 5.0 Wind-Up Openers

Envoyé par Oxdarock

Wow! Oh my goodness, I had no idea Barrage couldn't buff Apex Arrow. My mistake, thank you for the feedback. I'll need to edit that now.

While I see what you mean by being song less after Mages Ballad and how that affects you Soul Gauge gain, it only leaves you in that state for 10-13 seconds, which is the equivalent of six to eight DoT ticks, as Army's Paeon will come off CD by then. I'm not sure if you lose all of your Soul Gauge if your songs fall off, but in the event that you do, wouldn't it make sense to just use it before then? Same thing with PP. If you don't have three Repertoire stacks and the song is about to end, wouldn't you use them anyway? Pretty sure they don't carry over into the next song.

You don’t lose the gauge, but you cannot gain Repertoire without being in a song, meaning that your Soul Gauge will not fill while you are songless and that you have to delay using Apex even more (it takes roughly ~60 seconds to charge to 100 gauge and use as it is with the standard opener and play demonstrated in the ShB BRD guide). The more you delay Apex, the chances are you get fewer uses of it in a given fight, even while considering the RNG aspect to Repertoire and getting the Gauge to 100 in the first place. Even with those 6~8 DoT ticks, that’s 6~8 potential Repertoire ticks. Since each Repertoire gives 5 gauge, that’s a potential loss of 30~40 Soul Gauge. Sure, you may have crap RNG and get 0 procs, but you may also have god-tier RNG and get 6~8 procs of it. It’s best to always assume you’ll get the procs from Repertoire rather than assuming you won’t.

Ideally, you never want to be songless. There may be niche scenarios that call for it (I seem to remember an UwU rotation in SB that had you songless at one point for a brief amount of time in order to realign your rotation due to shifting it around for mechanics in Titan and pre-Suppression Ultima), but ideally you always want 100% uptime on songs. Less than 100% uptime means no Repertoire gain, which means lost damage. (Obviously, this doesn’t count for downtime...don’t sing there; but whenever the boss is targetable, you want to be in a song.)

The only time you use a non 3-stack PP (usually a 2-stack PP in this case) is if: you know that you have EA coming up on the next GCD that lines up concurrently with the DoT tick; or if Minuet is about to end. Your Repertoire do not carry over into Mage’s, but the idea is to milk all you can from the forced procs EA gives and maximize your PP usage. Back in SB, BRDs used to use 2-stack PP during openers due to Chain Stratagem and Battle Litany snapshotting onto our DoTs and pushing our proc rate well into 60+% in order to not overcap our Pitch Perfect stacks and lose damage. However, now, Repertoire is static at 40%, so most cases of PP will be 3-stack.

Envoyé par Oxdarock

If it had the percentage chance of Monk's Deep Meditation 2 + Bootshine (which is a 70% chance to proc a chakra stack) or BH (which guarantees at least two uses of FC), I could somewhat understand having those assumptions for procs, but not so much at 40%. At most, it means that you miss out on 2-3 procs rather than 6-8 procs. And these openers are all used under the assumption that everyone will be using similar openers that raid buffs end at the same time, so the way it lines up is different from current BRD guides and openers listed elsewhere (or it might be really similar).

I've edited so that PP is put before Apex Arrow. Now there's at least 16-20 seconds between playing Minuet and using PP with an EA in between. Pretty sure it's likely you're get two stacks within that time period.

I may meet my posting limit soon, so if I do not reply further, that is why (forums are limited to 20 posts within a roiling 24 hours and I’ve already been active this morning in other threads).


Even if its 2~3 in reality versus the potential 6~8, you shouldn’t ever act under the assumption you’ll get less procs instead of more. With proc based jobs, I think it’s best to always be prepared for the event that you do get a proc rather than say to yourself “I won’t get a proc”.

That period of songlessness would also likely mean that EA is up at some point. EA is meant to be used on cooldown in most instances, and using it guarantees a Repertoire. You would not want to sit on it during a songless period and risk losing uses of it throughout an encounter.

All that talk about procs being said, regarding your insertion of PP into the openers: while you should always have the mindset of getting and reacting to these procs, you also cannot solidify a spot in openers for RNG or proc-based skills outside of where they are guaranteed (e.g., by Barrage’s Straight Shot Ready trait, DNC procs guaranteed by Flourish, RDM procs guaranteed by Acceleration, etc.). Placing PP there may or may not even be beneficial depending on what kind of PP it is (1-stack, 2-stack, or 3-stack). There’s a reason the standard BRD opener does not include any hard spots for PP, but instead states “Use PP during this time at 3-stacks if/when it procs”. Same for Burst Shots procing RA: if your Burst Shots proc an RA during the opener, you replace it with RA with no question.

I had similar complaints regarding procs with your DNC openers simply because you’re opting for a 1-2 combo before starting Technical, but that risks you getting Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall procs, and you would have to subsequently delay your Flourish to not overwrite those procs, which potentially pushes the Flourished procs out of your TF window depending on your Saber Dance rates AND it means that all future Flourishes will be delayed by that 1 or 2 GCDs from lucky procs.



As for your BRD opener compared to the standard, they are vastly different. The same is for DNC. I guess I’m also just wondering why try to make new openers when others have already figured out the most optimal/standard openers that take into account raid buff alignment already.

Envoyé par HyoMinPark

Even if its 2~3 in reality versus the potential 6~8, you shouldn’t ever act under the assumption you’ll get less procs instead of more. With proc based jobs, I think it’s best to always be prepared for the event that you do get a proc rather than say to yourself “I won’t get a proc”.

That period of songlessness would also likely mean that EA is up at some point. EA is meant to be used on cooldown in most instances, and using it guarantees a Repertoire. You would not want to sit on it during a songless period and risk losing uses of it throughout an encounter.

All that talk about procs being said, regarding your insertion of PP into the openers: while you should always have the mindset of getting and reacting to these procs, you also cannot solidify a spot in openers for RNG or proc-based skills outside of where they are guaranteed (e.g., by Barrage’s Straight Shot Ready trait, DNC procs guaranteed by Flourish, RDM procs guaranteed by Acceleration, etc.). Placing PP there may or may not even be beneficial depending on what kind of PP it is (1-stack, 2-stack, or 3-stack). There’s a reason the standard BRD opener does not include any hard spots for PP, but instead states “Use PP during this time at 3-stacks if/when it procs”. Same for Burst Shots procing RA: if your Burst Shots proc an RA during the opener, you replace it with RA with no question.

I had similar complaints regarding procs with your DNC openers simply because you’re opting for a 1-2 combo before starting Technical, but that risks you getting Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall procs, and you would have to subsequently delay your Flourish to not overwrite those procs, which potentially pushes the Flourished procs out of your TF window depending on your Saber Dance rates AND it means that all future Flourishes will be delayed by that 1 or 2 GCDs from lucky procs.


As for your BRD opener compared to the standard, they are vastly different. The same is for DNC. I guess I’m also just wondering why try to make new openers when others have already figured out the most optimal/standard openers that take into account raid buff alignment already.

I can see that. As much as I tried to minimize losing out on resources, several of the longer openers do sacrifice something in order to get bigger moves within buff windows. It comes down to the dps loss versus the gain in that sense.

You're guaranteed two EA in each song window with it's CD and with where it is in the openers I listed, even if it does come off CD during a song-less period, it wouldn't be more than 1 or 2 GCDs and it's the only time it would happen in an encounter. You'd have to collectively hold EA by seven GCDs in order to waste a usage over a fight.

I do see what you mean about having exact spots for PP given it's nature. I tried to mention that you can switch it's placement with Sidewinder if RNG is good, but so long as you don't have a NIN or RDM, you can really pop them anywhere you want (which I should also add in there).

I can see the concern with the Cascade/Fountain fall combo and the second move gaining a Flourishing proc, but that just means you have to delay Flourish by 1 GCD. Unlike other duration buffs, it only takes about 8-10 seconds to use all of the Flourishing GCDs back to back, so it being pushed back by 1 GCD shouldn't be that bad. This is all assuming that the fight has 100% uptime, since there are several fights where you have to delay buffs during add phases (unless they're extremely tanky or you know you're going to have the buff up gain by the time the boss becomes targetable again) or there are moments of downtime (i.e. Maelstrom in E3S).

Ultimately, the reason for all of this work is an obsession I have with strengthening my TK rotation. Much as I'd like to just do the strongest monk opener, it's pointless if doing so mess up raid buff alignment and everyone else's damage.

Envoyé par Oxdarock

You're guaranteed two EA in each song window with it's CD and with where it is in the openers I listed, even if it does come off CD during a song-less period, it wouldn't be more than 1 or 2 GCDs and it's the only time it would happen in an encounter. You'd have to collectively hold EA by seven GCDs in order to waste a usage over a fight.

I still disagree with the idea of remaining songless for several seconds, and with sitting on EA at that time. I don’t think it’s optimal play for the job, as I’ve explained regarding Repertoire, procs, and the Soul Gauge.

Envoyé par Oxdarock

I do see what you mean about having exact spots for PP given it's nature. I tried to mention that you can switch it's placement with Sidewinder if RNG is good, but so long as you don't have a NIN or RDM, you can really pop them anywhere you want (which I should also add in there).

Sidewinder should more or less be used within raid buffs of any kind—the easiest to align it with is TA simply because they share a cooldown duration, which I believe is the default that the standard opener uses. I know that this was the case in SB, and that BRDs have always advocated to fit Sidewinder into TA for that extra boost on it.

PP is an oGCD, so it’s usage is relatively free in terms of where you can place it. Just make sure you don’t clip your next GCD while using it. It’s very basic: most of the time, you use it at 3 stacks; when the song is about to end, blow your remaining stacks with in the last couple of seconds. The biggest caveat is the “if EA is coming up concurrent with the next DoT tick”, and even that is something I am learning as a BRD main since before PP was even a thing!

Envoyé par Oxdarock

I can see the concern with the Cascade/Fountain fall combo and the second move gaining a Flourishing proc, but that just means you have to delay Flourish by 1 GCD. Unlike other duration buffs, it only takes about 8-10 seconds to use all of the Flourishing GCDs back to back, so it being pushed back by 1 GCD shouldn't be that bad. This is all assuming that the fight has 100% uptime, since there are several fights where you have to delay buffs during add phases (unless they're extremely tanky or you know you're going to have the buff up gain by the time the boss becomes targetable again) or there are moments of downtime (i.e. Maelstrom in E3S).

With regards to the bolded part, you aren’t accounting for the fact that you’re supposed to fit in a Standard Finish into your TF/Devilment window as well, which takes 5 seconds to perform. You also aren’t accounting for having to prioritize Saber Dance if you have an abundance of Esprit, which is very possible during a TF window in any party that is competent.

With Saber being 600 potency versus the 350 potency of Fountainfall and the 300 potency of Reverse Cascade/Bloodshower (standard usage of Rising Windmill usually has it outside of Devilment, but inside TF—but it’s 250 potency for reference), you prioritize it first if you are going to risk overcapping on Esprit otherwise (and it’s used at 80 gauge regardless in most instances—I think the only reason you would delay it is if one of your Flourished procs is going to fall off otherwise). It’s not uncommon to have to Saber Dance before you fit in your SF into your burst, as it’s very easy to go from half Esprit to full within that 5-second time frame; and overcapping on Esprit means overcapping on resources. Which means lost damage. There are even instances where you have to delay SF for a Saber Dance.

So I don’t think you can just say that the procs only take 8~10s to use and that it won’t be a big deal when there are multiple factors that may cause you to prioritize other GCDs over them during your bursts.

Keep in mind that some fights don’t have downtime like E3S does (E2S, for example), so your delayed Flourish—which can be from 1 GCD to 2 GCDs if you get procs off of both Cascade and Fountain in your proposed openers—will persist throughout the encounter due to having no opportunity to try and “fix” it. I don’t think the natural Drift of our dances is enough to rectify this issue fully.

If you are forced to delay it again further down in your rotation due to lucky procs, this hurts you even more. You never delay TF to try and realign Flourish, as that hurts buff alignment; which, in turn, hurts the raid. So you have to consistently deal with it being misaligned by those 1 or 2 GCDs. At most, I think that you can delay TF if there are mechanics happening that might prevent multiple party members from receiving the buff; but these are situations where you work with your group so that you collectively hold buffs for a few seconds—and no more than that, from my understanding of it all. And this is in fights with 100% uptime and no downtime/phase transitions/bosses jumping and flailing about doing stuff.

Envoyé par Oxdarock

Ultimately, the reason for all of this work is an obsession I have with strengthening my TK rotation. Much as I'd like to just do the strongest monk opener, it's pointless if doing so mess up raid buff alignment and everyone else's damage.

I don’t know much about MNK because I don’t main melee jobs, but I haven’t heard anything about actively using TK (save for niche scenarios where you’ll for sure lose GL, but I think it’s so easy to manage now that that’s no longer a huge issue) now that they’ve changed PB back to 120s. I know that it had far more versatility with the 60s PB.

I checked the pinned openers in the Balance, and didn’t see it being used anywhere. I’m assuming that these openers are the most optimal openers with regards to basic buff alignments (given the nature of the theorycrafters in there and all the work they do), so I guess I’m not sure why you’re wanting to use it or design a rotation/opener around it that may not even be optimal.

I can understand it wanting to have viability, and maybe that’s where this all ultimately stems from; but if using it comes at the sacrifice of damage/sacrificing optimization, I don’t think its worth it. I don’t think it’s a skill entire openers and raid buff alignment should be changed to cater towards, either. But this is just my opinion.

I’m not trying to be rude or mean in any way, but some of the things I have read and your reasonings just seem illogical based on what I’ve studied about the jobs I main. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert—I still say that I am constantly learning and optimizing—but I think I have a fair grasp on the concepts around BRD/DNC either way.



I don’t know if you saw what I said above about the healers, but I think you should brush up on job mechanics for all roles before further theorycrafting, as you mistakenly advocated for a 1m 45s pre-pull for AST on the pretense of fishing for Seals and a pre-pull card. But since you cannot obtain Seals outside of combat, so this is entirely unnecessary (and pre-pulls like this is why the developers made Seals combat only—after all, they really hated the 60s pre-pull for HW WAR with Infuriate; and they changed Hide to reset Mudras in SB because NINs were asking for 20s or more pre-pulls for Huton). There’s still much I think you could stand to learn.

Envoyé par HyoMinPark

With regards to the bolded part, you aren’t accounting for the fact that you’re supposed to fit in a Standard Finish into your TF/Devilment window as well, which takes 5 seconds to perform. You also aren’t accounting for having to prioritize Saber Dance if you have an abundance of Esprit, which is very possible during a TF window in any party that is competent.

So I don’t think you can just say that the procs only take 8~10s to use and that it won’t be a big deal when there are multiple factors that may cause you to prioritize other GCDs over them during your bursts.

I don’t know much about MNK because I don’t main melee jobs, but I haven’t heard anything about actively using TK (save for niche scenarios where you’ll for sure lose GL, but I think it’s so easy to manage now that that’s no longer a huge issue) now that they’ve changed PB back to 120s. I know that it had far more versatility with the 60s PB.

I checked the pinned openers in the Balance, and didn’t see it being used anywhere. I’m assuming that these openers are the most optimal openers with regards to basic buff alignments (given the nature of the theorycrafters in there and all the work they do), so I guess I’m not sure why you’re wanting to use it or design a rotation/opener around it that may not even be optimal.

I can understand it wanting to have viability, and maybe that’s where this all ultimately stems from; but if using it comes at the sacrifice of damage/sacrificing optimization, I don’t think its worth it. I don’t think it’s a skill entire openers and raid buff alignment should be changed to cater towards, either. But this is just my opinion.

I’m not trying to be rude or mean in any way, but some of the things I have read and your reasonings just seem illogical based on what I’ve studied about the jobs I main. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert—I still say that I am constantly learning and optimizing—but I think I have a fair grasp on the concepts around BRD/DNC either way.

I don’t know if you saw what I said above about the healers, but I think you should brush up on job mechanics for all roles before further theorycrafting, as you mistakenly advocated for a 1m 45s pre-pull for AST on the pretense of fishing for Seals and a pre-pull card. But since you cannot obtain Seals outside of combat, so this is entirely unnecessary (and pre-pulls like this is why the developers made Seals combat only—after all, they really hated the 60s pre-pull for HW WAR with Infuriate; and they changed Hide to reset Mudras in SB because NINs were asking for 20s or more pre-pulls for Huton). There’s still much I think you could stand to learn.

I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

I still think that having to delay Flourish for 1 or 2 GCDs (assuming you also have a Saber dance that needs to be used) isn't that bad since it doesn't take more than 8 seconds to use all of the Flourish moves.

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch!