Prelim 5.0 SMN Feedback & how the rework is going against improved downtime design

[Nemekh]

Hello,

I'm Nemekh, resident Summonerd from various groups, notably one of the SMN mentors and theorycrafters from The Balance community.

With the advent of the media tour embargo being lifted, we’ve excitedly been going over all the footage and information we have been able to glean in order to piece together and test several the changes.

Much feedback has been gathered from the community already. While there are the good aspects, there are the other less ideal aspects with the rework that will be detailed below with the focus being on 5.0 SMN’s rotation mechanics.

Prepull setups that parties will not been keen on waiting for

It has been a historic problem in 8 man content where players do not want to have to spend time waiting on particular jobs to obtain their resources, be it Warrior in HW with long prepull timers, ASTs with cards, or SMN with their Aetherflow stacks.

The SMN opener has long since expected to have 3/3 Aether stacks ready with Aetherflow off cooldown, for optimal damage and rotation alignment. That has since changed with Dreadwyrm Trance being a separate cooldown no longer relying on Aetherflow and Aethertrail generation. Aetherflow stacks are now generated with Energy Drain and Energy Siphon purely for damage.

In the Dengeki Interview with Yoshida he specifically mentions “doing away the stress of needing to recover their Aetherflow stacks before the battle starts”.

In the Game.Watch interview he also mentions that “We removed the annoying part of stacking your “Aetherflow” pre-pull as well”.

While the waiting on Aetherflow is gone, there are now other sources of prepull setup that a SMN can potentially utilise which will be annoying:

1. Dreadwyrm Trance
   
   Dreadwyrm Trance being a separate 60s cooldown no longer dependent on Aetherflow and Aethertrail gains is an interesting change, but one of rigidity due to the hard enforced 15s trance window every minute.
   
   It can be used out of combat to gain Dreadwyrm aether for Bahamut. This means that if we wait for 15s before engage we could open with Bahamut at the start. If we waited 60s we could open with Bahamut at the start into immediate Phoenix trance after. This pooling of potency and resources can be argued as too strong and unintended given the rotation design paradigm shift. This also places an annoyance on the party for having to wait on the Summoner before engaging, repeating the problem of waiting for Aetherflow, only the max wait time can go considerably higher.
   
   Please consider making Dreadwyrm Trance and Firebird usable only in combat to prevent this. This would be annoying for dungeons where pulls are slow and are not seamless, but it would spare us a dark timeline of parties being malcontent.
   
   
2. Egi Assaults
   
   Of the egi actions that carry on into 5.0 currently we can use Flaming Crush and Mountain Buster out of combat without a target which lets us fish for Further Ruination procs prepull. This is used prepull in our standard openers and also to make Garuda’s Contagion more seamless with Sic.
   
   In 5.0 Egi Assault 1 and 2 replace standard pet actions. Earthen Armour (EA1), Mountain Buster (EA2) and Flaming Crush (EA2) all will not require enemy targets. If EAs can be used outside of combat prepull, due to Further Ruin procs stacking at 4 with a duration of 30s, it is possible to cycle EA1 and EA2 with Titan Egi out, consuming charges and staggering them to refresh and maintain Further Ruin.
   
   If we combine this with prepull DWT, we can consider silly multiple minute prepull openers that are “potency optimal” where we open with Demi-Summons and 4 Ruin 4 stacks.
   
   It is not confirmed if EAs can be used outside of combat in this manner, but if they can, please consider making them usable only in combat. We do not want to be the joke job that has to have 3 minutes of prepull prep to do their utmost.
   
   
3. Energy Drain used on a striking dummy before zoning in (see clip here)
   
   This is something presently the case, where Aetherflow stacks persist while you zone. In 5.0 however the intent is to only generate Aetherflow stacks after using Energy Drain which can only be used while in combat on a valid target.
   
   If Aetherflow stacks still persist across zones in 5.0 then a SMN could Energy Drain a striking Dummy before zoning in to gain 800 potency in their opener with 2 extra Festers. If a pull wipes, the SMN would start fresh as normal, but in an optimised scenario for say speed runs (time attacks), the party would have to zone out, allow the SMN to generate Aetherflow stacks again, zone back in and then start a pull once more.
   
   Please consider having Aetherflow stacks not persist through zones, otherwise this will be another potential source of party annoyance and stress.
   
   
4. Summon Bahamut used before zoning in (see clip here)
   
   If you use Summon Bahamut then immediately go into an instance, Bahamut will stay around until his timer elapses instead of the gauge resetting entirely. Now while you cannot engage while Demi-Bahamut is around, once the timer ends, he withdraws and carbuncle respawns the ring that surrounds the party disappears letting you engage. But under 5.0 rules you would also now have Phoenix Aether for Firebird Trance.
   
   Please consider giving the Demi-Summon gauge timer the Polyglot treatment where the timer does not carry on through zones. Otherwise this will enable prepull resource generation in order to open with Firebird Trance and Demi-Phoenix.
   
   With prepull concerns and feedback having been mentioned, the next big one is how the new rotation is seeming to fit together.
   
   After a whole expansion of Stormblood we grew familiar with the 2 minute cycle of the SMN rotation featuring Demi-Bahamut, after quite a few growing pains from 4.0 when the job was not in the best of states. The 2 minute cycle still exists, but has changed in light of Firebird Trance (FBT) and Demi-Phoenix.

Rotation Quirks: Trances

With the Demi-Summon cycle now being decoupled from Aetherflow and only dependent on finishing Dreadwyrm Trance (DWT), DWT is now the bottleneck of the rotation on its strict 60s cooldown.

This is problematic for several reasons as it dramatically affects how SMN was able to account for and play around downtime in their rotation.

Where before with Aetherflow all that mattered was using it on cooldown to gain stacks and plan for using stacks when was appropriate, using a Trance action immediately puts you into the Trance state and cannot be pooled for when is more appropriate. This is an issue with downtime as depending on how a fight goes it can mean if you do not use it during downtime you risk losing uses altogether.

By extension, the strict rigidity of the 60s Trance cycle also mandates using on cooldown, making it so that Trance windows can not be used for movement flexibility at a risk of causing cooldown drift and potentially losing uses resulting in heavy potency losses. It also results in strict filler dps segments in between. It also promotes using Dreadwyrm Trance and finishing it immediately just to stay to time in order to have Demi-Bahamut stay in alignment.

My friend and colleague from The Balance Myon also discusses it with additional points and ideas in this thread and as an old Machinist main he has mentioned how it’s as if SMN has now gained rigid Wildfire windows.

Having thought about it for a while, I have a suggestion to address Trance rigidity while maintaining the rotation cycle:

Aethertrail Attunement
Type: Ability
Cast: Instant
Recast: 60s
Grants Aethertrail Attunement allowing the casting of Dreadwyrm Trance and Firebird Trance
Can only be executed in combat
Duration: 60?s
SMN Lv. 58

Something like this would free up the use of Trances flexibly for as long as you stay alive with the buff while maintaining cooldowns. It is possible that it should also be what has the Tri-Disaster resets instead of Trances with this in mind.

It is an extra button, but when the alternative is potentially significant losses, having a means to mitigate downtime problems, as in accordance with Yoshida’s design paradigm, would be more preferable.


Rotation Quirks: Aetherflow

Similarly to the above, Aetherflow can now only be generated by using Energy Drain (ED) and Energy Siphon (ES) against a valid target. This means that if an ED use would coincide with downtime, the cooldown would drift until an entity is targetable again. If the downtime is long enough to meet or exceed 30s then we outright lose ED+2 stacks of potency. Beyond that

Please consider example ideas such as:

1. Making Energy Siphon PBAoE to not require a target (like Flaming Crush/Mountain Buster) to generate Aetherflow, but require being in combat to generate stacks.
2. Implementing the Charge system for Aetherflow Generation (e.g. on ED/ES, start from 1 charge, cap up to 2, generate charges only in combat) to mitigate the penalty of boss-untargetable downtime and retaining the ability to use the actions.
3. Reintroducing Aetherflow for non-damage stack generation that like the Scholar ability can only be used in combat. It wouldn’t be dps optimal over using ED, but if it prevents damage stacks from outright being lost then it’s a fairer compromise, not unlike Engagement vs Displacement for RDM.

Being unable to use resources due to hard timers, where previously it was not an issue, is a source of player stress. It could be argued that it was too good in the past, but the current system is not ideal.


Here’s a summary of the above:

1. Please address prepull resource generation so there are no prepull causes for party stress
2. Please consider tweaking/enabling a means to make Trances more flexible
3. Please consider tweaking/enabling a means to gain Aetherflow stacks in downtime

Conclusion:

With the current proposed setup changes for 5.0 SMN it has only traded some prepull concerns of the past (Aetherflow) with others that I’d argue are considerably worse if left as they are. Let us not be like Heavensward Warrior.

The rotation has taken step backwards with Trance rigidity which will not feel good in practice and will be a source of frustration due to downtime. Similarly, Aetherflow stacks not able to be generated in downtime will also be a source of frustration.

There are more areas of feedback in particular with FBT gcds, DoT/Ruination timings with Tri-Disaster resets, pets (Titan) and more but I felt this post was already pretty full of points with the focus on the core structure of the new changes. Please feel welcome to add more points, alternatives and suggestions!

[WandererintheDark]

One possible way to add Aethertrail Attunement without adding an extra button would be the 5.0 Wildfire/Detonator treatment. Replace the Attunement skill with the corresponding trance on use, while still having its cooldown ticking in the background.

[Cetonis]

ED is just a large 30 second damage oGCD, and I don't see the issue with allowing things like that to exist. If you think SE must change ED, then they might as well rework Dragoon and their big-deal 30s damage cooldowns too. Gunbreaker has one as well, lolTankPotency aside.

The pre-pull stuff obviously needs fixes. While I'd be a fan of more DWT flex because it's a neat feature of current SMN, I don't see it as a critical problem. Job kits are allowed to have drawbacks, and it's possible that SE intends for this new DWT to be one.

[Myon88]

While I'd be a fan of more DWT flex because it's a neat feature of current SMN, I don't see it as a critical problem. Job kits are allowed to have drawbacks, and it's possible that SE intends for this new DWT to be one.

DWT and FBT sharing a cooldown and dictating the tempo of the whole rotation is kind of analogous to if bard's 3 songs were just 1 button that transformed into the next song in turn. In a fight with many breaks like the ultimates, you would be forced to sit through the entire cycle and run the clock on AP, instead of your fight knowledge and planning allowing you to gain more uses of WM and MB. Even your troubadour song selection would come down to chance (not that that will matter since it's gone in 5.0).

I don't think any bard would be defending a change like that if it went through, there would be unanimous sentiment that the job was being simplified. And it is, because as you can see above, flexibility in rotations and resource usage are opportunities to display skill and foresight. It's unfortunate that this is happening to summoner now, when the team seems to be paying more attention to designing the jobs around downtime this expansion.

[Cetonis]

DWT and FBT sharing a cooldown and dictating the tempo of the whole rotation is kind of analogous to if bard's 3 songs were just 1 button that transformed into the next song in turn. In a fight with many breaks like the ultimates, you would be forced to sit through the entire cycle and run the clock on AP, instead of your fight knowledge and planning allowing you to gain more uses of WM and MB. Even your troubadour song selection would come down to chance (not that that will matter since it's gone in 5.0).

I don't think any bard would be defending a change like that if it went through, there would be unanimous sentiment that the job was being simplified. And it is, because as you can see above, flexibility in rotations and resource usage are opportunities to display skill and foresight. It's unfortunate that this is happening to summoner now, when the team seems to be paying more attention to designing the jobs around downtime this expansion.

I mean, that's why I said I'd like the flexibility to be there. I did main SMN for a tier, I know how nice it is. But I don't think there's a damning problem here, in terms of "SE must fix this or else the job is inoperable / unacceptable". It's not like the pre-pull nonsense or MCH's Rapid Fire issue.

Also I think you're being a little extreme if you're trying to say that SMNs will just be burning Bahamut for zero damage during downtime because they somehow can't help themselves.

Obviously they won't be able to get 11 trances in every 10:30 fight with breaks the way they can get 11 AF now, but that could just... be a thing. There's not really any reason why it couldn't be a thing, you'd get fight by fight variance in job balance but I think there's a chance that SE wants that.

It's very clear that SE is not super interested in the wishes of current players who main these jobs on a high level; they're killing lots of stuff that jobx mains liked all over the place. And from the "we're designing jobs for 2020 leafs" perspective, this doesn't stand out to me as a critical issue.

[Len]

Wow. I hadn't considered some of these scenarios and this looks worrying. I was around when Stormblood's first-round of tooltips were released, but I don't recall how changed they were from the media tour build to the live version. Is it likely that they'll even be able to address these concerns in time for release?

Not to sound snarky, but what are the developers thinking when they're working on Summoner..? Are there any other jobs with these sort of pre-pull oddities or glaring issues?

[Dyvid]

Wow. I hadn't considered some of these scenarios and this looks worrying. I was around when Stormblood's first-round of tooltips were released, but I don't recall how changed they were from the media tour build to the live version. Is it likely that they'll even be able to address these concerns in time for release?

It might have minor changes like potency and timers but they are going to wait until we get our hands on the jobs and play it before making bigger changes. You can look at the 4.0 patch note history. 4.1 is when we saw big changes.

[Shurrikhan]

Wow. I hadn't considered some of these scenarios and this looks worrying. I was around when Stormblood's first-round of tooltips were released, but I don't recall how changed they were from the media tour build to the live version. Is it likely that they'll even be able to address these concerns in time for release?

Not to sound snarky, but what are the developers thinking when they're working on Summoner..? Are there any other jobs with these sort of pre-pull oddities or glaring issues?

Pretty much just Monks, SMN, SCH, and AST, actually. Ninja averted the issue via Hide. Warrior... well, Infuriate was already limited to being usable only in combat.

The sad thing is they could increase convenience in pre-pull by increasing convenience overall rather than by... decreasing convenience in all other areas.

Have SCHs and SMNs simply spawn in with Aetherflow filled.
Either give Draw a 5-second cooldown until combat starts or a card is actually used, or allow Draw to continue recharging in the background even when a card is already drawn and have AST (re)spawn in with a card at the ready.
Have Monks simply (re)spawn in with all 5 stacks of Chakra. Have Form Shift allow extended access to one further form, rather than merely cycling forms outright, and have it passively apply in the background when out of combat until you have access (after 2-3 GCDs) to all forms.

Likewise, get rid of the in-combat requirement on Meditate and Infuriate, but make rage generated by either source fade when out of combat at a rate of 5 gauge per 5 seconds after the first 10 seconds from having left combat. (In this way, they can't actually generate any resource for pre-pull.)

Done.

[Kabooa]

The only parties going to do the pre-pull shenanigans are parties 99% of us won't be in or put up with.

[Myon88]

I personally wouldn't go as far to say the problem isn't on the level of 'damning', it is by far the ability that most significantly throttles the pace of the rotation. It's not even just a question of the damage you lose from the demi itself, but the fact it's also inextricably tied to the other parts of the summoner toolkit. It will determine where your tri-disaster resets are (and in 5.0 additional sets of dot hardcasts are going to incur a 400-500 potency opportunity cost), as well as when you are free to execute egi assaults due to egis being mutually exclusive with demis.

The fact that they've finally put a detonator on wildfire (albeit after 4 years) shows they are beginning to understand the impact downtime has on jobs revolving around signature abilities. Few jobs are as much of a one-trick pony as summoner and aetherflow/DWT.

In the other thread I outlined precisely a situation where it would be preferable to waste a demi summon on purpose to benefit from an earlier cooldown later on. Besides, wasting a summon during downtime and losing one at the end because the fight ended too early are functionally identical situations anyway, you're losing the same potential damage in either case with only the mechanism being different. Perhaps that's why phoenix comes with a medica effect as a consolation prize...

Anyway, we of course can't presume to know what kind of paradigms SE is adhering to with the latest round of changes. However I would like to think that they would err towards a design with a higher performance ceiling and more room for skill expression. Like I also laid out elsewhere, it's not as if this has made the job any more accessible to ordinary players either. Moment to moment complexity has only increased and DWT is entwined too deeply with the rotation for it not to have knock on effects on the job as a whole. The primary barrier to entry was the long build up to bahamut and correspondingly harsh penalty for death, and that has been essentially solved by the addition of the new trait that doubles the amount of bahamut charges DWT grants.