Physical Ranged TANK

[MaraD_]

While I've said this many times before, I feel 5.0 is the best iteration of "tanking" to allow this. (Not to be confused with "caster tank")

To make this easier to follow, I'm going to reference DNC.
This new "tank" partners with another person (just so happens, DNC was given such a mechanic in 5.0)
But unlike DNC, its locked to DPS jobs only. (With no effect on Tank/Healer roles)
Unlike DNC, there are 2 possible buffs to use for "partnering".
Similar to AST with its sects, you pick one, and the partner, only 1 can be active, and u cant change it once the fight starts.

They both add: Massive Threat added to all actions the target does, and -20% damage taken.
Depending on which one you pick, they can either:
(1) Remove all positional requirements, and raise defense/HP based on YOUR defense/HP.
(2) Prevent interruptions from damage taken, and raise def/HP based on YOUR stats, by a bit more than the other stance. EDIT: forgot to add "Some AoE spells only have a 0.5s cast time. (not the GCD, and Flare might only be reduced to 2.5s which is a DPS increase still)
Death does not remove the buff for either of you.

Im sure you're seeing where this is going.
You turn someone else into the tank.

For 4 man dungeons, turning a caster into a tank is more than fine.
For 8 man content, this makes it a bit trickier, better off picking the melee DPS. (but should be possible)

When partnered, any mitigation buffs you apply to yourself, instead apply to your partner. (it also never actually applies to you while partnered)
Rampart/Sheltron/Sentinel equivalents, all go to your partner. (doesnt require a target)

While partnered, the effect of provoke directs the threat increase to your partner, instead of yourself.
(Shirk remains the same)

EDIT: forgot to mention invulnerability. Your partners HP can no longer go below your current HP while under the effect. (If you die, then they can die. If you're at 2,436 hp, then they cant drop below 2,436)

EDIT: I had this in mind, but don't want people to actually see this, until after they have an opinion on the job first. So only highlight if you have thought about it already. (I cant figure out how to use spoilers since [SPOILER] doesnt work.) >Like DNC, the partner buff also raises their personal DPS a tiny bit. Lets say 2%-5%. This of course means the personal DPS of the new tank job would be less to make up for it. But this is to encourage DPS to want to volunteer for the role, since their DPS would be going up.<

This was technically possible for 2.0-4.0, but had a few hurdles to deal with, regarding tank stances. But with the changes, this is all but too easy to implement now.
I know we will never get another tank ever again, but this is a decent middle ground for SE. People who want the quicker queues of tanks, but want to feel like they are playing a DPS can role this tank.
This is of course the main gimmick, this doesnt include what playstyle the job would be given.
(Even with the gimmick, this is nearly a copy of what tanks already do.)
I'm sure more people would absolutely HATE being a DPS in a group, and being stuck as the partner in a 4man dungeon.
But I find that unexpected turn rather exciting personally. Sometimes i WISH I was tanking, when im leveling a DPS, just due to issues with my current tank.
What does everyone else think? Would you hate being on the receiving end too much to like this job?
(Personally I'd imagine quite a few DPS players switching to this job, just so they are guaranteed not to be the one pulling. Making DPS queues a lot shorter haha.)

[Raim]

I like the concept a lot, but I imagine you might run into awkward situations in dungeons where both of the DPS don't want to be the stand in 'tank' especially if its say a SMN and BLM.

[MaraD_]

I'd imagine it would be the same as with any boss fight where DPS need to volunteer for mechanics/tasks, and they are all suddenly quite, waiting for another DPS to sign up.
Which is, someone else assigns them the job, and they try to do it anyways.
It's possible they might leave the group, but I personally don't think they would.

Over all, communication should always be the goal of the game. Not turning our brains off, and watching netflix as we play.
So I would see a few people afraid to do it, but after they see all responsibility pretty much goes to the tank using CDs, and the healer keeping them up, they wont be as nervous, and no longer be an issue after a few days of such a job being released. (Which wouldnt happen anyways. More of a fun idea.)

As for the caster thing, I forgot a part about lowering cast times on AoEs. I still need to make another adjustment about the stance I forgot about as well.

[whiskeybravo]

Sounds like a glorified cover tank with a lot of inherent problems.

Main one being that people who don't want to play tank probably aren't going to like having to tank when they get randomly matched up with it.

Eh.. It's a neat idea, and probably about the only way a tank could ever actually be "ranged", but just doesn't seem like something we need. And really, you're effectively making it possible to have a 3rd tank in content to cheese mechanics (I don't what mechanics could be cheesed, but people are great at figuring that stuff out)

EDIT: forgot to mention invulnerability. Your partners HP can no longer go below your current HP while under the effect. (If you die, then they can die. If you're at 2,436 hp, then they cant drop below 2,436)

And this is kind of problematic considering that if the partner is the one taking the damage, and not the "tank", then they are effectively permanently invulnerable.

[MaraD_]

Sounds like a glorified cover tank with a lot of inherent problems.

Main one being that people who don't want to play tank probably aren't going to like having to tank when they get randomly matched up with it.

From a "gameplay" perspective, its perfect. But from a playerbase perspective, its annoying.
Which I feel is plenty fine. Most players find boss AoEs annoying, as it ruins stacks/casts/uptime.
Having a challenge be presented, and overcame, even if its as simple as an orange circle on the ground, is within range of acceptability, as long as it functions correctly from a gameplay perspective.
granted, if you argue its ok to annoy your player, thats another argument, as some players feel games should be easier, or more catered to their interests, which isnt "wrong", but does come with its downsides by doing so.

So I'm in agreement people will be annoyed, but I'm curious to go a step further, and think of what all that entails, both good and bad.

[whiskeybravo]

From a "gameplay" perspective, its perfect. But from a playerbase perspective, its annoying.
Which I feel is plenty fine. Most players find boss AoEs annoying, as it ruins stacks/casts/uptime.
Having a challenge be presented, and overcame, even if its as simple as an orange circle on the ground, is within range of acceptability, as long as it functions correctly from a gameplay perspective.
granted, if you argue its ok to annoy your player, thats another argument, as some players feel games should be easier, or more catered to their interests, which isnt "wrong", but does come with its downsides by doing so.

So I'm in agreement people will be annoyed, but I'm curious to go a step further, and think of what all that entails, both good and bad.

It's a stretch to call the gameplay perfect, you haven't defined much about it's gameplay at all aside from it acting as a role swapper. I mean, if you have to resort to throwing DPS buffs on people to make it look more attractive.. It should sell itself.

Interesting. Since this is only hypothetical, and no one can be punished for it, would anyone here actually vote kick out such a job? Would anyone here leave group? Its hard to imagine it would be "that bad" to be partnered, since you hardly change up your rotation.

Absolutely. When I queue up as a DPS it's because I want a break from tanking.

[MaraD_]

It's a stretch to call the gameplay perfect, you haven't defined much about it's gameplay at all aside from it acting as a role swapper.

The phrasing is a bit hard for me to articulate in this case, when i said gameplay, i more so mean the gimmick. Obviously we havent touched on the gameplay. But let's pretend it a 1to1 in DPS rotation/abilities, and CD use of another tank, like GNB.
If you feel GNB isnt perfect, then which ever tank you feel is the closest to perfect. (The word "perfect" is an exaggeration, but meant to get across the idea that the gimmick lacks any serious flaw in its ability to function in content.) Obviously im not saying it SHOULD be a clone of said tank, just to use for testing out the gimmick.

I mean, if you have to resort to throwing DPS buffs on people to make it look more attractive.. It should sell itself.

This statement is true, but I'd like to clarify first, this only applies to OTHER groups of people wanting to bring the job along. In an EX party, would groups forbid such a job to come? I think its possible, but some are desperate for tanks.
As for the second part, the job can sell itself to those who want to play it, regardless of this buff.
So I think its good to clarify you mean those who would want, or not want, to invite it to parties. Not those who would or wouldnt want to play it.

Absolutely. When I queue up as a DPS it's because I want a break from tanking.

Technically you could have that very thing by BEING this job. Of course, you cant play as it forever, and sometimes you're trying to level up other stuff.

EDIT: I think if the group hasnt actually fought any mobs yet, its easily provable the job was kicked for being said job.
Unlike other scenarios where you need to see text talking about it.
So not only is it reportable, it would be bannable.
(The answer would be to pull mobs until times up, then kick. To which, I think most players would just keep going if there's no issues with the 1st bit of the dungeon being already over. but I could be wrong)

[whiskeybravo]

This statement is true, but I'd like to clarify first, this only applies to OTHER groups of people wanting to bring the job along. In an EX party, would groups forbid such a job to come? I think its possible, but some are desperate for tanks.
As for the second part, the job can sell itself to those who want to play it, regardless of this buff.
So I think its good to clarify you mean those who would want, or not want, to invite it to parties. Not those who would or wouldnt want to play it.

Technically you could have that very thing by BEING this job. Of course, you cant play as it forever, and sometimes you're trying to level up other stuff.

EDIT: I think if the group hasnt actually fought any mobs yet, its easily provable the job was kicked for being said job.
Unlike other scenarios where you need to see text talking about it.
So not only is it reportable, it would be bannable.
(The answer would be to pull mobs until times up, then kick. To which, I think most players would just keep going if there's no issues with the 1st bit of the dungeon being already over. but I could be wrong)

It's just not really a good design, it's interesting, but not good. You expect when a tank shows up that they'll be tanking, not abdicating that role to someone else in the party. Yes, you may really really really be excited to play this style, but it's a group game so you need 3 or 7 other people who also want to play that style. And if they don't want to then you really can't compel them to. Reporting for vote kick abuse or not. Worst case they just drop.

[ExLegen]

Ranged tank never going to happen in ff14. Why would they spend resources into a "ranged Tank"? there arent many people interested in this, and wouldnt really work without a pet (and wouldnt be a ranged tank anymore), and even then... why??? Its not practical, doenst make sense whatsoever... you want to kit the boss around to "keep the range" and turn the battlefield into a chaotic mess?

no thank you, i rather they spend resources to make the game and the current classes better.

ranged tank...... that maybe (and thats a far one) work on an action game like Tera with a lot of work.

[Jasmyne]

To answer your question, I would be pretty annoyed if I were dps and they added a job that forced me into a role that I didn't queue for. That would mean I would be responsible for keeping the boss positioned properly (which is the tanks job) on top of my "more complicated than tank" dps rotation that's already hard enough to focus on. This job would be the ultimate wet dream for lazy tanks.

However I think this would have been a nice viable job in raids back before stances were removed. It would make it so the high dps tanks like warrior could be in deliverance, and depending on how it was done could actually make tank swaps completely trivial. It's a cool idea albeit kinda irrelevant at this point since the regular tanks could just tank the damn things themselves without worrying about losing benefits from a "dps stance". However I think it would still be a very cool option for a dps class to provide, essentially being a tank support job.

On the topic of ranged tanks, I think they could just give that role to GNB. If you leave melee range all your attacks become ranged and it could share some of MCH old animations that were removed. It would allow them to completely remove Lightning Shot and Rough Divide and would make the job immediately the most unique tank in the game. The only attacks that wouldn't swap to be ranged being AOE rotation and bow shock.