Physical Ranged TANK

[MaraD_]

While I've said this many times before, I feel 5.0 is the best iteration of "tanking" to allow this. (Not to be confused with "caster tank")

To make this easier to follow, I'm going to reference DNC.
This new "tank" partners with another person (just so happens, DNC was given such a mechanic in 5.0)
But unlike DNC, its locked to DPS jobs only. (With no effect on Tank/Healer roles)
Unlike DNC, there are 2 possible buffs to use for "partnering".
Similar to AST with its sects, you pick one, and the partner, only 1 can be active, and u cant change it once the fight starts.

They both add: Massive Threat added to all actions the target does, and -20% damage taken.
Depending on which one you pick, they can either:
(1) Remove all positional requirements, and raise defense/HP based on YOUR defense/HP.
(2) Prevent interruptions from damage taken, and raise def/HP based on YOUR stats, by a bit more than the other stance. EDIT: forgot to add "Some AoE spells only have a 0.5s cast time. (not the GCD, and Flare might only be reduced to 2.5s which is a DPS increase still)
Death does not remove the buff for either of you.

Im sure you're seeing where this is going.
You turn someone else into the tank.

For 4 man dungeons, turning a caster into a tank is more than fine.
For 8 man content, this makes it a bit trickier, better off picking the melee DPS. (but should be possible)

When partnered, any mitigation buffs you apply to yourself, instead apply to your partner. (it also never actually applies to you while partnered)
Rampart/Sheltron/Sentinel equivalents, all go to your partner. (doesnt require a target)

While partnered, the effect of provoke directs the threat increase to your partner, instead of yourself.
(Shirk remains the same)

EDIT: forgot to mention invulnerability. Your partners HP can no longer go below your current HP while under the effect. (If you die, then they can die. If you're at 2,436 hp, then they cant drop below 2,436)

EDIT: I had this in mind, but don't want people to actually see this, until after they have an opinion on the job first. So only highlight if you have thought about it already. (I cant figure out how to use spoilers since [SPOILER] doesnt work.) >Like DNC, the partner buff also raises their personal DPS a tiny bit. Lets say 2%-5%. This of course means the personal DPS of the new tank job would be less to make up for it. But this is to encourage DPS to want to volunteer for the role, since their DPS would be going up.<

This was technically possible for 2.0-4.0, but had a few hurdles to deal with, regarding tank stances. But with the changes, this is all but too easy to implement now.
I know we will never get another tank ever again, but this is a decent middle ground for SE. People who want the quicker queues of tanks, but want to feel like they are playing a DPS can role this tank.
This is of course the main gimmick, this doesnt include what playstyle the job would be given.
(Even with the gimmick, this is nearly a copy of what tanks already do.)
I'm sure more people would absolutely HATE being a DPS in a group, and being stuck as the partner in a 4man dungeon.
But I find that unexpected turn rather exciting personally. Sometimes i WISH I was tanking, when im leveling a DPS, just due to issues with my current tank.
What does everyone else think? Would you hate being on the receiving end too much to like this job?
(Personally I'd imagine quite a few DPS players switching to this job, just so they are guaranteed not to be the one pulling. Making DPS queues a lot shorter haha.)

[Raim]

I like the concept a lot, but I imagine you might run into awkward situations in dungeons where both of the DPS don't want to be the stand in 'tank' especially if its say a SMN and BLM.

[MaraD_]

I'd imagine it would be the same as with any boss fight where DPS need to volunteer for mechanics/tasks, and they are all suddenly quite, waiting for another DPS to sign up.
Which is, someone else assigns them the job, and they try to do it anyways.
It's possible they might leave the group, but I personally don't think they would.

Over all, communication should always be the goal of the game. Not turning our brains off, and watching netflix as we play.
So I would see a few people afraid to do it, but after they see all responsibility pretty much goes to the tank using CDs, and the healer keeping them up, they wont be as nervous, and no longer be an issue after a few days of such a job being released. (Which wouldnt happen anyways. More of a fun idea.)

As for the caster thing, I forgot a part about lowering cast times on AoEs. I still need to make another adjustment about the stance I forgot about as well.

[whiskeybravo]

Sounds like a glorified cover tank with a lot of inherent problems.

Main one being that people who don't want to play tank probably aren't going to like having to tank when they get randomly matched up with it.

Eh.. It's a neat idea, and probably about the only way a tank could ever actually be "ranged", but just doesn't seem like something we need. And really, you're effectively making it possible to have a 3rd tank in content to cheese mechanics (I don't what mechanics could be cheesed, but people are great at figuring that stuff out)

EDIT: forgot to mention invulnerability. Your partners HP can no longer go below your current HP while under the effect. (If you die, then they can die. If you're at 2,436 hp, then they cant drop below 2,436)

And this is kind of problematic considering that if the partner is the one taking the damage, and not the "tank", then they are effectively permanently invulnerable.

[MaraD_]

Sounds like a glorified cover tank with a lot of inherent problems.

Main one being that people who don't want to play tank probably aren't going to like having to tank when they get randomly matched up with it.

From a "gameplay" perspective, its perfect. But from a playerbase perspective, its annoying.
Which I feel is plenty fine. Most players find boss AoEs annoying, as it ruins stacks/casts/uptime.
Having a challenge be presented, and overcame, even if its as simple as an orange circle on the ground, is within range of acceptability, as long as it functions correctly from a gameplay perspective.
granted, if you argue its ok to annoy your player, thats another argument, as some players feel games should be easier, or more catered to their interests, which isnt "wrong", but does come with its downsides by doing so.

So I'm in agreement people will be annoyed, but I'm curious to go a step further, and think of what all that entails, both good and bad.

[Makeda]

Title is misleading...

I thought this would be about an actual ranged tank, like the Wildstar Engineer that used a plasma rifle and bots (think of the MCH).

But instead this is some weird idea about forcing a role switch on another player. This kind of class would end up a prim candidate for vote kicks. I suspect everytime people saw one they’d stand at the door and refuse to budge until the timer had moved enough and they could vote it out.

[MaraD_]

This kind of class would end up a prim candidate for vote kicks. I suspect everytime people saw one they’d stand at the door and refuse to budge until the timer had moved enough and they could vote it out.

Interesting. Since this is only hypothetical, and no one can be punished for it, would anyone here actually vote kick out such a job? Would anyone here leave group? Its hard to imagine it would be "that bad" to be partnered, since you hardly change up your rotation.

Title is misleading...
I thought this would be about an actual ranged tank, like the Wildstar Engineer that used a plasma rifle and bots (think of the MCH).
But instead this is some weird idea about forcing a role switch on another player.

I've mentioned that type of tank plenty, but most people have already thought it before. So this type was more about something I never hear anyone talking about.
As for saying its misleading, thats sorta incorrect, but it takes a LONG time to explain why.

Lets pretend we make a new MMO.
its only DPS and Healers.

We have DPS who focus on AoE, and DPS who focus on single target. (some old MMOs did this, and 2.0 sorta did this)
We have healers who focus on AoE, and some on single target.

But, what if the single target healer was limited to ONLY selecting themselves? To compensate, they get MORE potency.
So they heal 100 potency per GCD.
The other AoE healer heals 50 potency per GCD.
A boss would deal 150 potency per attack (GCD)
and does 50 potency per raide wide attack.

essentially this "healer" would be a tank, by players standards.

Now what about a game where we had 0 heals. only mitigation buffs like rampart.
The AoE mitigation user does -25% dmg taken, and the self targeting one uses a -50% dmg taken.
the raid can survive X number of raid wide attacks.
so the DPS check isnt an enrage, but how long mitigation lasts, until HP is 0. (since there is no heals.)
This self mitigator would be considered the tank.

Mitigation and healing serve the same role in a RPG.
Just as melee DPS and ranged DPS are technically serving the same role.

I thought, what if we reverse the two? what if the self mitigator targeted others instead (Ramparts the party), and the AoE healer was self healing only (constantly equilibriums themselves)?
Which of the 2 is considered the tank, and which is considered the healer?
In short, the self healer doesnt fully work in FFXIV, but the role of "Mitigate dmg, so the healer can keep up heals, and protect the group" still applies to this job.
It would still be a tank, and fulfill its function in every situation.

The stereotypical Knight with a shield isnt the only way to define tank.
(But I'm still all for the Wildstar engineer btw!)

[ADVSS]

Title is misleading...

I thought this would be about an actual ranged tank, like the Wildstar Engineer that used a plasma rifle and bots (think of the MCH).

But instead this is some weird idea about forcing a role switch on another player. This kind of class would end up a prim candidate for vote kicks. I suspect everytime people saw one they’d stand at the door and refuse to budge until the timer had moved enough and they could vote it out.

Same. I could see a decoy tank "working" but this sort of reminds me of "tag, youre it!" Of course, with a decoy tank and this games combat, that would be difficult i would think. Although... yeah, pretty much would make it hard for things like positioning, among other things. I did think at one time though it'd be interesting to have a tank that could split/hold boss in place and wander off to grab adds, but thatd just make 2 tanking less viable, so,,,

[whiskeybravo]

From a "gameplay" perspective, its perfect. But from a playerbase perspective, its annoying.
Which I feel is plenty fine. Most players find boss AoEs annoying, as it ruins stacks/casts/uptime.
Having a challenge be presented, and overcame, even if its as simple as an orange circle on the ground, is within range of acceptability, as long as it functions correctly from a gameplay perspective.
granted, if you argue its ok to annoy your player, thats another argument, as some players feel games should be easier, or more catered to their interests, which isnt "wrong", but does come with its downsides by doing so.

So I'm in agreement people will be annoyed, but I'm curious to go a step further, and think of what all that entails, both good and bad.

It's a stretch to call the gameplay perfect, you haven't defined much about it's gameplay at all aside from it acting as a role swapper. I mean, if you have to resort to throwing DPS buffs on people to make it look more attractive.. It should sell itself.

Interesting. Since this is only hypothetical, and no one can be punished for it, would anyone here actually vote kick out such a job? Would anyone here leave group? Its hard to imagine it would be "that bad" to be partnered, since you hardly change up your rotation.

Absolutely. When I queue up as a DPS it's because I want a break from tanking.

[MaraD_]

It's a stretch to call the gameplay perfect, you haven't defined much about it's gameplay at all aside from it acting as a role swapper.

The phrasing is a bit hard for me to articulate in this case, when i said gameplay, i more so mean the gimmick. Obviously we havent touched on the gameplay. But let's pretend it a 1to1 in DPS rotation/abilities, and CD use of another tank, like GNB.
If you feel GNB isnt perfect, then which ever tank you feel is the closest to perfect. (The word "perfect" is an exaggeration, but meant to get across the idea that the gimmick lacks any serious flaw in its ability to function in content.) Obviously im not saying it SHOULD be a clone of said tank, just to use for testing out the gimmick.

I mean, if you have to resort to throwing DPS buffs on people to make it look more attractive.. It should sell itself.

This statement is true, but I'd like to clarify first, this only applies to OTHER groups of people wanting to bring the job along. In an EX party, would groups forbid such a job to come? I think its possible, but some are desperate for tanks.
As for the second part, the job can sell itself to those who want to play it, regardless of this buff.
So I think its good to clarify you mean those who would want, or not want, to invite it to parties. Not those who would or wouldnt want to play it.

Absolutely. When I queue up as a DPS it's because I want a break from tanking.

Technically you could have that very thing by BEING this job. Of course, you cant play as it forever, and sometimes you're trying to level up other stuff.

EDIT: I think if the group hasnt actually fought any mobs yet, its easily provable the job was kicked for being said job.
Unlike other scenarios where you need to see text talking about it.
So not only is it reportable, it would be bannable.
(The answer would be to pull mobs until times up, then kick. To which, I think most players would just keep going if there's no issues with the 1st bit of the dungeon being already over. but I could be wrong)