Please consider giving PLD a way to generate Oath gauge outside of auto attacks.

[Saeno]

I know PLD is very strong right now in terms of utility and damage and they pay for that by having 1 less personal mitigation skill. That's understandable. What I think is a bit awkward is how during downtime, where you cannot hit a target, you cannot gain more gauge. This is a bit awkward in places like Eden's Gate: Resurrection because you have a lot of downtime in between phase transitions but since you cannot auto attack, you cannot generate gauge to provide Intervention and Sheltron for the damage from the adds.

For moves like Raw Intuition, Heart of Stone, you simply need time for these skills to be back up in time for damage. During downtime, these skills are resetting. For DRK, you need MP for Blackest Night, however you generate MP during downtime so it's still becoming available for the DRK during downtime.

I hope this suggestion wont make PLD too overpowered compared to the other tanks, I just feel like its weird that there is no way to increase gauge when you cannot hit anything.

Please give me your thoughts!

[Nedkel]

Well, we all want some little adjustments to our jobs, but so far as live letter goes, they only consider tweaking mitigation skills a little and nothing else.

So they may be a chance they will change paladin a little bit or not at all, i wouldnt count on any changes of pld anyway.

.

[Marc-Vigar]

Can WAR generate beast gauge during downtime? No.
Can GNB generate cartridges during downtime? No.
DRK MP regen is so slow and the cost of abilities is so high that you'd need like 30 seconds of downtime to get 1 skill out, because they can't use Blood Weapon or Carve and Spit (600 mana 60 sec CD...) without a target and even then those abilities are really weak.

[Saeno]

Can WAR generate rage during downtime? No.

False. They can with Infuriate. They can also ignore their gauge with Inner release.

Can GNB generate cartridges during downtime? No.

True, however the job completely fills its gauge with Bloodfest and also generates gauge faster than any other tank by simply ending their Brutal Shell combo.

DRK MP regen is so slow and the cost of abilities is so high that you'd need like 30 seconds of downtime to get 1 skill out, because they can't use Blood Weapon or Carve and Spit (600 mana 60 sec CD...) without a target and even then those abilities are really weak.

The thing with DRK is that they do start encounters at maximum MP and can also remain above 3k MP at any time to ensure they always have The Blackest Night available. Just like WAR, they can also cheat their gauge with Delirium. However, in the case that they do dip below 3k MP, they have things for when a target is present to accelerate their MP gain slightly to help with them getting Blackest Night in time for whatever they need it for.

As for PLD however, you start with 0 gauge. You only gain gauge from auto attacks and it takes 10 auto attacks (21-22.4 seconds) to gain your first 50 gauge. This means that the PLD, for any tank damage early into the fight, will have to pick and choose between Sheltron and intervention unless the damage happens even sooner than 22s, in which case you have to go without a short CD unlike the other tanks.

I think considering how PLD cannot cheat its gauge, or how you cannot built gauge without a target, there should be some other means of building gauge or cheating it to ensure you have the ability to block early on or in a pinch. You can use Passage for the block, sure, but this is assuming you're ok with a single block or ok with losing some damage. By using passage as a personal CD you also forgo the advantage of having two raid shields which then puts you behind one CD from the other tanks. You have a 2 minute personal that you are not using for raid damage that blocks a single hit. It seems silly to rob your team of a raid mitigation tool just for a personal CD, which you can just have your sheltron available instead.

[Marc-Vigar]

False. They can with Infuriate. They can also ignore their gauge with Inner release.

True, however the job completely fills its gauge with Bloodfest and also generates gauge faster than any other tank by simply ending their Brutal Shell combo.

The thing with DRK is that they do start encounters at maximum MP and can also remain above 3k MP at any time to ensure they always have The Blackest Night available. Just like WAR, they can also cheat their gauge with Delirium. However, in the case that they do dip below 3k MP, they have things for when a target is present to accelerate their MP gain slightly to help with them getting Blackest Night in time for whatever they need it for.

As for PLD however, you start with 0 gauge. You only gain gauge from auto attacks and it takes 10 auto attacks (21-22.4 seconds) to gain your first 50 gauge. This means that the PLD, for any tank damage early into the fight, will have to pick and choose between Sheltron and intervention unless the damage happens even sooner than 22s, in which case you have to go without a short CD unlike the other tanks.

I think considering how PLD cannot cheat its gauge, or how you cannot built gauge without a target, there should be some other means of building gauge or cheating it to ensure you have the ability to block early on or in a pinch. You can use Passage for the block, sure, but this is assuming you're ok with a single block or ok with losing some damage. By using passage as a personal CD you also forgo the advantage of having two raid shields which then puts you behind one CD from the other tanks. You have a 2 minute personal that you are not using for raid damage that blocks a single hit. It seems silly to rob your team of a raid mitigation tool just for a personal CD, which you can just have your sheltron available instead.

My ilvl 90 PLD can fill half gauge in 18 seconds not 21-22 like you said so if you want to debate at least be honest with numbers.

PLD have no way of filling the gauge quick but they don't really need it because they have other tools at their disposal.
If you demand a gauge filler I demand a 1200 potency heal without cooldown for all other tanks, a Hollowed Ground type of immunity instead of a trash spell like Superbolide, an 800 potency AoE and a Cover like ability on my GNB.

[Saeno]

My ilvl 90 PLD can fill half gauge in 18 seconds not 21-22 like you said so if you want to debate at least be honest with numbers.

Then let's talk numbers. Since HW, the vast majority of end game PLD weapons have a recast of 2.24 seconds. This means that as a PLD you will deal an auto attack every 2.24 seconds. The only time this is different is when you deal your first auto attack, which is as soon as you first attack ( or right click) an enemy. if it takes 10 auto attacks to reach 50 gauge, we can do the math as follows: 2.24 x 10 = 22.4. Again, taking account the instant auto attack at the start, it is more like 20-21 ( depending on when the game decides to let you auto) and then 22.4 seconds for every other 50 gauge.

PLD have no way of filling the gauge quick but they don't really need it because they have other tools at their disposal.

Except their gauge is tied to their most spammable CD, Sheltron. It's actually a hindrance to PLD's since they cannot use their lower recast CD immediately unlike the other tanks. The other tanks have their gauge tied to damage, which means they don't need to manage gauge in order to mitigate damage. Their cooldowns are just cooldowns or tied to MP like with DRK, which again starts encounters with full MP.

If you demand a gauge filler I demand a 1200 potency heal without cooldown for all other tanks, a Hollowed Ground type of immunity instead of a trash spell like Superbolide, an 800 potency AoE and a Cover like ability on my GNB.

This is a bit of an interesting response. You're taking into consideration everything else about PLD but not taking into consideration what the other tanks already have. Some consider Clemency to be a detriment because it costs DPS to use the move and it's often not needed. The other tanks already have ways to heal themselves with things like Soul eater, Brutal Shell, Equilibrium, Path. None of these cost damage unlike Clemency. Some would also consider Superbolide to be better than Hallowed in some situations and worse in others. I think those two moves are fairly balanced. Confiteor is part of PLD's damage. All tanks have their own ways of doing damage and they all feel different. I have no idea where you were going with this and why it relates to the balance of other tanks. Confiteor is not so much better than what all of the other tanks already have. Tanks getting cover would be cool but ultimately this move is being used a lot less often now that is was nerfed so heavily. Cover is also tied to the gauge so every cover you use is a Sheltron/Intervention lost. It doesn't help that you still have the slowest gauge generation of all tanks.

[Marc-Vigar]

I don't know about higher level weapons but asuming it's true they have longer recast, 20-22 seconds is still the lowest recast from all tank busters (WAR/GNB are 25 sec, DRK 15 sec 3000 mana), so it's pretty competitive.

Why would you be using Sheltron immediatelly anyways? It isn't a hidrance, you can start a fight with a full gauge and use Sheltron twice, unlike other tanks that will have to wait for the 25 sec cooldown.

Im taking into consideration what other tanks have because you are doing the same, your argument to demand a gauge filler is that other tanks have it. You said "other tanks already have ways to heal themselves with things like Soul eater, Brutal Shell, Equilibrium, Path." That is absolutely false.

- Soul Eater = 300 potency, requires vulnerable target, and it's a combo finisher, so 5 seconds total to cast. ---> VS Clemency = 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Brutal Shell = 300 total potency (150 heal+150 shield), requires vulnerable target, 2nd hit combo so 2.3 sec to cast. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Equillibrium = 1200 potency, no target required, instant, 60 second cooldown. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

Clemency is by far the best self sustain spell from all tanks, it's what allows you to finish bosses even if the whole party is dead, no other tank has such privilege. It comes at the cost of damage, yes, but tanks are not DPS, and if you are sustaining urself that means healers can DPS meanwhile, so it's not a big loss.

No one considers Superbolide better than Hollowed Ground because that's straight up stupid. Superbolide is very limited, you can't use it a high HP and if you get stunned when you're low, you will die. And let's not talk about healers raging at you for using it at the wrong time. With HG nothing can go wrong.

The point is, if you wanna demand something other tanks have and you don't, you must accept that other tanks also want what you have and they don't.

[Saeno]

I don't know about higher level weapons but asuming it's true they have longer recast, 20-22 seconds is still the lowest recast from all tank busters (WAR/GNB are 25 sec, DRK 15 sec 3000 mana), so it's pretty competitive.

Why would you be using Sheltron immediatelly anyways? It isn't a hidrance, you can start a fight with a full gauge and use Sheltron twice, unlike other tanks that will have to wait for the 25 sec cooldown.

Because it is tied to auto attacks. If you cannot actually hit something, you do not gain gauge with then halts your Sheltron "recast". This is what the original post mentioned.

Im taking into consideration what other tanks have because you are doing the same, your argument to demand a gauge filler is that other tanks have it. You said "other tanks already have ways to heal themselves with things like Soul eater, Brutal Shell, Equilibrium, Path." That is absolutely false.

- Soul Eater = 300 potency, requires vulnerable target, and it's a combo finisher, so 5 seconds total to cast. ---> VS Clemency = 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Brutal Shell = 300 total potency (150 heal+150 shield), requires vulnerable target, 2nd hit combo so 2.3 sec to cast. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Equillibrium = 1200 potency, no target required, instant, 60 second cooldown. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

Clemency is by far the best self sustain spell from all tanks, it's what allows you to finish bosses even if the whole party is dead, no other tank has such privilege. It comes at the cost of damage, yes, but tanks are not DPS, and if you are sustaining urself that means healers can DPS meanwhile, so it's not a big loss.

So you're going to ignore the benefits of the other tank healing abilities because in your opinion the damage they deal is irrelevant and the only thing that matters is just tanking. That seems very silly to just ignore free healing that you receive by simply doing damage. In that case, PLD is actually one of the best healers in the game because when they Requiestcat, they can heal 5 times in a row for 1800 potency each heal. Who needs Confiteor anyways?

Losing DPS in order to heal is a very serious trade off. Justify it however you like but there is a real cost to Clemency. Just look at the front page for the thread where the healer is complaining at PLD's for using Clemency. If it is not needed it is a DPS loss and no one benefits from a DPS loss. if it is needed then absolutely you should take the DPS loss because it might end up being a DPS gain if someone lives. Weather or not the receiver actually needed that heal is anyone's debate.

No one considers Superbolide better than Hollowed Ground because that's straight up stupid.

You can use Superbolide twice in Eden Prime. You can Hallowed ground only a single time in Eden Prime. Does that make Hallowed bad or Superbolide good? Not really because you do two Superbolides and one Hallowed and leave it at that. Point is, one is not better than the other. They both have their strengths and weaknesses and that's what keeps them balanced. I did not claim Superbolide to be better, rather it is competitive with Hallowed.

The point is, if you wanna demand something other tanks have and you don't, you must accept that other tanks also want what you have and they don't.

What I asked for is for PLD to be able to recharge their Sheltron just like how the other tanks can recharge their short CD's during downtime. Im not asking for a completely brand new cooldown. Im asking to have Sheltron when the other tanks have their short CD after downtime.

[Kabooa]

Giving Bulwark's effect to Shelltron and then removing gauge generation on blocking has been the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, ever.

[ashwich]

I don't necessarily think they need a cd to reset their resources like the other tanks per se. It's reasonable for PLDs to start instance with half the gauge imo. The only real problem I see with shelltron is when boss has a early tank buster, or during first pull of dungeons. Then again WHM don't have lilies, SCH doesn't have fairy gauge. So eh?