RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[Maero]

How exactly is it unfair that a job (blm) with no support is highest dps??
The discussion should be about making slight changes to smn and RM, not massive buffs to make it on par with blm because they should not go that far.
I have said it before using Verraise as an excuse as to why Red Mage should be at the bottom is just oh so wrong

[MagiusNecros]

BLM doesn't have raise by virtue of having infinite MP. Has nothing to do with DPS regardless of what devs say.

Pretty sure SMN has better overall mobility given you only really hard cast 4 spells. Miasma, Ruin 1/3, and Resurrect and occasionally Outburst. The rest are instant or oGCD. SMN lacks a dash/teleport since it is free to move at all times.

For RDM to get Dualcast they need to hardcast a spell. And a majority of their rotation is a 1-2 combo of hardcasting a spell then using their DC proc on another spell or something else.

IMO BLM and RDM have warps or gap closers for the fact they have less mobility overall. You can argue that BLM mobility is rather good if you use AM effectively and instead of using LL as your damage CD you use it as a movement option.

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On a separate note I disagree with Red Mage being the most unwelcome. Blue Mage takes the cake for that. Mainly because level cap and poor design decisions.

[Vallhallix]

Yoshi-P said it himself in the recent liveletter that BLM has higher DPS than the other casters because they don't have Raise. It's actually a legitimate reason to them.

Yes, but as other posters have stated regardless of what he said, the past patches don't reflect this. Why is raise the villain when both classes have the ability to heal themselves, and SMN's is a party wide regen. Why is raise the reason for low damage when it has always been there even when SMN was at it's prime, instead of that new addition heal? makes no sense.

[kajv95]

If RDM was as strong as a BLM and had access to Vercure and Verraise, why would people want a BLM around? The same goes for DNC, why bring a BRD or MCH, just bring 2 DNCs and have them buff each other. The loss of the GCD will only hurt as people are learning the fights. Once people get them on farm, sure the errant mistake will happen, but RDMs won’t be throwing around cures and raises.

As a BRD main of 3 years, I can tell you that that's not how that works lol
Currently all ranged dps (including bard and machinist) are being far, far too low purely because the support tax is way too high and the dps we give to others is way too low. Despite being pretty much amazing in Stormblood, you didn't see 2 Bards in a party either, yet they could keep up a fair deal. Because Bards themselves do not benefit as much from their own boosts, they *give* boosts. I recognize that by the end, Bards were hilariously overpowered, but that's a matter of crit scaling exponentially twice on Bards, which has been dealt with accordingly. Dancer doubles do not particularly buff the party as well together either, and the myriad of other issues coming with this do not help either. Your analogy does not hold up.

As for the RDM/SMN dps problem, here's the deal. It does not have to be as strong as BLM, ever. In fact, there have to be a couple of jobs like BLM to keep the 4-dps balance of the game in check. The game is supposed to be played, according to anecdotal evidence inferred from how the duty finder and party bonus mechanics work, by bringing a healthy mix of jobs from ranged dps, caster dps and melee dps. Then there's 1 slot left, which is usually reserved for bringing a ninja or another selfish dps, or something for a somewhat specific party build.

However, simply having access to raise and to a lesser extent, vercure, does not warrant being essentially worthless otherwise. Neither does bringing some defensive support type moves. RDM doesn't have to be as strong as BLM on its own, it has to thrive off of bringing other selfish dps, or be closer to it in general. Being 80% isn't a fair exchange for having access to some support. That should be more like 90% in the case of RDM. In the case of Bard, Dancer and even Ninja, they should be more like 85% turning 95-102% when coupled with selfish dps types. Machinist should be 93 to 98% to begin with, Summoner should also be around that.

All of this should prevent the meta from turning into "just bring the top 4 dps, they're so strong the 1% main stat buff from party bonus won't even matter".

And by the way, if you want to get technical about it, everything has support in a way. Black Mages have Addle. Monks have Mantra. Samurai has Feint (Thanks person who reminded me <3).

As for when people get them on farm, RDMs won't be throwing cures and raises, yet they'll still be taxed to hell for having them so nobody will want to even bring RDMs or even SMNs. This is why raise tax needs to be drastically lowered. Yes, in it's current iteration, RDM is fated to be one of the lowest DPS. That should not make them borderline unplayable in pug settings, though.

[Hix]

I do not think Embolden is as strong as some make it seem tbh. It actually only effects yourself and Physical meaning other casters are not effected...
Also Stormblood Smn was the most mobile out of the casters and it had higher dmg (even higher then blm at some points)

Most groups have 3 caster (DPS+2 Healer) 5 physical (2 tanks 2 melee 1 ranged) composition though

[Lina_Slayer]

BLM doesn't have raise by virtue of having infinite MP. Has nothing to do with DPS regardless of what devs say.

Pretty sure SMN has better overall mobility given you only really hard cast 4 spells. Miasma, Ruin 1/3, and Resurrect and occasionally Outburst. The rest are instant or oGCD. SMN lacks a dash/teleport since it is free to move at all times.

For RDM to get Dualcast they need to hardcast a spell. And a majority of their rotation is a 1-2 combo of hardcasting a spell then using their DC proc on another spell or something else.

IMO BLM and RDM have warps or gap closers for the fact they have less mobility overall. You can argue that BLM mobility is rather good if you use AM effectively and instead of using LL as your damage CD you use it as a movement option.

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On a separate note I disagree with Red Mage being the most unwelcome. Blue Mage takes the cake for that. Mainly because level cap and poor design decisions.

Optimized SMN play makes it the least mobile caster, because while you can just replace Ruin 3 by Ruin 2 there is a 30 potency loss every time you do it, this coupled with the job having a really static rotation and thus being unable to save Ruin 4s for movement (like BLM does with Xenoglossy/procs) because they need to be used to weave stuff and the fact that even on phases that allow you to use a lot of instant spells (like DWT, Phoenix or even Baha where the optimized play is to use 4 instant casts) there is something that screw the job (DWT need to be cut fast or else you won't have your DoTs up for Bahamut phase and movement during Demi-Primal phases can make they lose an attack) and makes it unable to abuse those instant casts for movement.

So even if in number of instant spells used by minute SMN edges BLM and even if SMN have the most powerful spammable instant spell between the two (lol Scathe), the fact that BLM rotation is way less rigid means that BLM ends up having the overall edge in mobility.

[dinnertime]

Yes, but as other posters have stated regardless of what he said, the past patches don't reflect this. Why is raise the villain when both classes have the ability to heal themselves, and SMN's is a party wide regen. Why is raise the reason for low damage when it has always been there even when SMN was at it's prime, instead of that new addition heal? makes no sense.

If they actually consider Everlasting Flight, a flavor effect that you can't use optimally for AoE damage heavy moments, part of SMN's utility...then they really don't know what they're doing at this point.

Also SMN had arguably better utility in 4.x, too. Why is SMN in such a bad spot now? Meanwhile they've ignored RDM and it's in an even worse place. Yes, Raise isn't the only "villain", but it's a huge part of the problem with caster job balancing right now. They both have these sub-optimal utilities and the tax for it is too much right now.

[SaberMaxwell]

And by the way, if you want to get technical about it, then the only true top dps job in the game should be Samurai. Everything else has support in a way. Black Mages have Addle. Monks have Mantra.

Not that I disagree with the main thrust of your post, but...

SAM has Feint.

[Aomine1992]

BLM doesn't have raise by virtue of having infinite MP. Has nothing to do with DPS regardless of what devs say.

Pretty sure SMN has better overall mobility given you only really hard cast 4 spells. Miasma, Ruin 1/3, and Resurrect and occasionally Outburst. The rest are instant or oGCD. SMN lacks a dash/teleport since it is free to move at all times.

For RDM to get Dualcast they need to hardcast a spell. And a majority of their rotation is a 1-2 combo of hardcasting a spell then using their DC proc on another spell or something else.

IMO BLM and RDM have warps or gap closers for the fact they have less mobility overall. You can argue that BLM mobility is rather good if you use AM effectively and instead of using LL as your damage CD you use it as a movement option.

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On a separate note I disagree with Red Mage being the most unwelcome. Blue Mage takes the cake for that. Mainly because level cap and poor design decisions.

SMN is not mobile when played correctly...Demi summons have to be still for attacking purposes, using Ruin 2 is a heavy lose in dps, DWT is blown quickly to align with party buffs. Please don’t mis understand the class for what it used to be in SB.

[kajv95]

Not that I disagree with the main thrust of your post, but...

SAM has Feint.

*snort* well I completely forgot about that, it's not mentioned often enough I think. Kinda just makes the whole debacle feel even dumber though, considering the status the non-top 4 jobs are currently in! Thanks for notifying though, I'll just amend that section <3