RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[geekgirl101]

I feel like, they should increase the RDM's and SMN's damage to be comparable to BLM. But when a RDM or SMN use a raise or a heal it should put a damage debuff on them. That way they can choose to ignore their utilities for extra dps and only be charged their "utility tax" for when they do choose to use them.

Even that suggestion is ridiculous. RDM and SMN already lose DPS when they're raising people so they don't really need to be taxed, but they don't need to be as good as BLM either. Just put us on par with the other DPS at least.

[Seraphor]

I feel like, they should increase the RDM's and SMN's damage to be comparable to BLM. But when a RDM or SMN use a raise or a heal it should put a damage debuff on them. That way they can choose to ignore their utilities for extra dps and only be charged their "utility tax" for when they do choose to use them.

If they did this (which I don't think they should) then why not give BLM a Raise with a similar debuff too?
Then all casters give exactly the same utility and output the same DPS...

[Duelle]

From reading this thread, I'm getting the impression that Verraise is being used as a reason to keep RDM DPS potential down. While I agree that this sort of approach in questionable, can see why Verraise makes for an easy target (since RDM can bypass the prohibitive cast times for rezzing thanks to Dualcast).

Assuming we want to address the problem to justify an increase in DPS potential, there are a couple of options:

A) Remove Verraise from interactions with Dualcast: This would make sense, but it would mean Dualcast is not universally functioning with all spells, which I'm sure would bother some people on a thematic level.
B) Change Verraise into an ability: Instant cast, but on a 90-120s cooldown. You'd probably have to do this to SMN too if you want to maintain some level of control over how much DPS jobs can contribute to wipe prevention/recovery. The downside here is that it puts Swiftcast in an awkward position.

As for what can be done to remedy the low DPS without adding new mechanics, there's also a couple of routes for that:

A) Potency increases: This is self explanatory.
B) Buff Embolden: This can sort of work since it would be an increase to raid DPS. Not a fan of the idea, but it is a possibility.
C) Increase mana gained from spells: This would allow more melee combos, which at lv80 also means more uses of Scorch after Verflare/Verholy. My suggestion would be Jolt and Impact granting 5 of each mana, Verthunder/Veraero granting 13 Black/White mana, Verfire/Verstone granting 11 Black/White mana, and Scorch granting 9 of each mana. Verflare/Verholy would stay the same. Not sure how much of an increase this would be if current potencies are left alone.

[Zyneste]

Change Verraise into an ability: Instant cast, but on a 90-120s cooldown. You'd probably have to do this to SMN too if you want to maintain some level of control over how much DPS jobs can contribute to wipe prevention/recovery. The downside here is that it puts Swiftcast in an awkward position.

There is a growing sentiment among RDM for VerRaise to just be an ability. A friend suggested it should be a 2 minute cool down with 2 charges on it and I think thats fair. Casters can become recovery support, without the need to lose raw DPS themselves. Let healers keep the GCD raise. Swiftcast is already in an awkward position for SMN as its needed for their DPS rotation. RDM uses it as well as a backup proc fisher. Either using it on just raise will just cause issues with people clutching onto swiftcast the whole fight.

Personally, I just want to be done with it all. Give all casters a role skill raise or none of them. Give all casters a role skill raise or divide the caster role into Janitors (raisers) and Real Casters.

Raise in itself is learned at level 12 by a novice caster, an arcanist. Surely a Black Mage could grasp a similar concept. Its just a low level magic that is easy enough for someone familiar with the magical arts to learn, no more difficult than that same BLM having learned Erase in 4.x. Adding a cool down to it further shows its something that the role can do, but can't do often, unlike the healers who will keep their GCD raise.

RDM, SMN and BLM should share the same sort of dynamic as the other classes. RDM for low personal DPS, high RDPS, SMN for middle ground and BLM for high personal DPS. BLM should have an advantage after the two just because of its personal DPS nature. Thats it. Balance the other roles similarly. Let the Role bonus be what keeps the party formed into a standard comp of 2 healers, 2 tanks, 1 ranged, 1 caster, 1 melee, 1 free slot.

It's not just Verraise being spammable.
Overuse of Verraise is just as detrimental to a RDM and SMN, it just gives a slight boost from Dualcast.

The reason RDM does less damage than even SMN is because it has additional utility.
It has a viable cure spell.
It has a party wide buff (so additional rDPS).
And it's also the most mobile of the casters.

Again, vercure has its own costs. Look at PLD. Clemency does double the healing as Vercure at our ilevels and yet its tied for the top DPS slot amongst tanks. Why doesn't PLD suffer the Safety net tax for Clemency, as RDM does for Vercure?

RDPS and PDPS add up to balance the class. Even with Embolden, RDM is about 3% behind SMN and 13% behind BLM at the highest skill level.

Also again, RDM mobility comes and goes in windows. We have a different sort of mobility compared to BLM who have access to instantcast procs that they can hold onto, Xenoglossy and Triple cast.

[Duelle]

Personally, I just want to be done with it all. Give all casters a role skill raise or none of them. Give all casters a role skill raise or divide the caster role into Janitors (raisers) and Real Casters.

While I agree with the former, this would call for turning rezzes into role actions across the board. Have Resurrect be the DPS role action on a 90-120s cooldown, and have Raise be the healer role action that is a spell with a 10s cast time.

[Zyneste]

While I agree with the former, this would call for turning rezzes into role actions across the board. Have Resurrect be the DPS role action on a 90-120s cooldown, and have Raise be the healer role action that is a spell with a 10s cast time.

I mean, you could if you want. Healers already all have the same GCD raise, so turning them into a role skill doesn't really change anything for them. Its 8 seconds though, not 10. RDM is the only raise at 10 seconds, because of dual cast. Role skill OGCD Ressurect on a 120 second cool down feels natural enough for me, even better if it got charges.

[Duelle]

I mean, you could if you want. Healers already all have the same GCD raise, so turning them into a role skill doesn't really change anything for them. Its 8 seconds though, not 10. RDM is the only raise at 10 seconds, because of dual cast. Role skill OGCD Ressurect on a 120 second cool down feels natural enough for me, even better if it got charges.

The reason I mention this is more because of ACN splitting into SCH and SMN. It would be a lot less messy over having to create two version of Resurrect (SCH version on the GCD, SMN version that's an ability).

[Seraphor]

It's not just Verraise being spammable.
Overuse of Verraise is just as detrimental to a RDM and SMN, it just gives a slight boost from Dualcast.

The reason RDM does less damage than even SMN is because it has additional utility.
It has a viable cure spell.
It has a party wide buff (so additional rDPS).
And it's also the most mobile of the casters.

I like this paradigm, of different jobs within a role having varying utility versus dps.
It's just a little unbalanced. RDM gives the most utility, but its not quite proportional to the dps nerf it's got.

I think RDM could afford a slight DPS increase, plus allowing Embolden to affect ALL damage, not just physical, and then it could be ok.
RDM and NIN could both do with a dps buff right now, as they're about on par with Dancer, yet Dancer gives LOADS more rDPS.

[Miminming]

Blm should be on top, everyone agrees... BUT
A great SMN/RDM should have higher dps than medicore BLM,
the current dps difference make it so even a great SMN/RDM having a hard time winning again medicore BLM which its not okay for sure...
BLM may have they current dps if they lost all the new mobility ability, atm heck you can say that it have more mobility than the other 2 caster...

[Maero]

How exactly is it unfair that a job (blm) with no support is highest dps??
The discussion should be about making slight changes to smn and RM, not massive buffs to make it on par with blm because they should not go that far.
I have said it before using Verraise as an excuse as to why Red Mage should be at the bottom is just oh so wrong