RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[Misutoraru]

Difficulty is subjective, one would say lining buff/oGCD in the rotation is more difficult than a class with simple rotation but heavily impact by mobility, some would say the other way round. Which job a player found more difficult should not matter and should never take into account interns of balancing. Even if the dev found a way to gauge job difficulty, and giving more damage to those job, is this a form of rewarding or hand holding. Eventually, it will become the meta and only job that “relavent”, this, job difficultly should never be a factor.

However, i do think “damage uptime” should be consider, just have to be very carefully with it, it should only count as downtime where there is absolute no way of attacking. I.e. melee that got push so far out, or range/ caster have to go on full mobile not even a single no cast skill can be use.

[Drayos]

I think when people put forward the concepts of “my job is too difficult to justify balancing” they forget they’re only screaming one thing.

Your gonna get yourself simplified lol, SE have made it clear in they’re trying to redefine job difficulty to be much closer to one another you shout your mouth off about how hard it is to play, ur just red flagging for those changes.

Call mistranslation or not, the changes they put forward about summoner and ninja both did say simplify several times. And everything linked to what it explained shouted simplify.

DRG, MCH, Monk, bard all got simplified. Dancer came out as the easiest job in the game to play, we saw the same thing in SB with SAM and RDM being much more condensed and easier entry levels compared to the already existing jobs.

There’s a difference between saying

“my jobs underpowered, it needs tuning TA is not bringing my RDPS to where it should be”

And “RDM is simple, it doesn’t need to be viable people should be punished for choosing a job so far below my jobs skill curve”

Once 5.1 hits, providing the info is accurate and we are about to see ninja and summoner re-simplified. Hopefully these arguments will die atleast.

[CrashofZenki]

I think when people put forward the concepts of “my job is too difficult to justify balancing” they forget they’re only screaming one thing.

Your gonna get yourself simplified lol, SE have made it clear in they’re trying to redefine job difficulty to be much closer to one another you shout your mouth off about how hard it is to play, ur just red flagging for those changes.

Call mistranslation or not, the changes they put forward about summoner and ninja both did say simplify several times. And everything linked to what it explained shouted simplify.

DRG, MCH, Monk, bard all got simplified. Dancer came out as the easiest job in the game to play, we saw the same thing in SB with SAM and RDM being much more condensed and easier entry levels compared to the already existing jobs.

There’s a difference between saying


“my jobs underpowered, it needs tuning TA is not bringing my RDPS to where it should be”

And “RDM is simple, it doesn’t need to be viable people should be punished for choosing a job so far below my jobs skill curve”

Once 5.1 hits, providing the info is accurate and we are about to see ninja and summoner re-simplified. Hopefully these arguments will die atleast.

Or you will see that the playerbase that crave complexity will quit the game. Also, BLM has the exact same argument for why it IS Overpowered. Remember how they say movement is limited? Well they arent limited anymore. So they should by your own words not be holding on to their DPS by proclaiming its because of movement, AKA difficulty.
By your words, Melee DPS shouldnt have compensation for lack of uptime, Ranged DPS shouldnt be placed under in DPS because of movement advantage (Again we are talking about difficulty.)

Do you see what Im going for here?

Oh and I forgot. You didnt mention that the easiest dps job in the game also has the lowest DPS (DNC) even with ulitity in mind. So again, difficulty has nothing to do with how they balance this game?

[Drayos]

Or you will see that the playerbase that crave complexity will quit the game. Also, BLM has the exact same argument for why it IS Overpowered. Remember how they say movement is limited? Well they arent limited anymore. So they should by your own words not be holding on to their DPS by proclaiming its because of movement, AKA difficulty.
By your words, Melee DPS shouldnt have compensation for lack of uptime, Ranged DPS shouldnt be placed under in DPS because of movement advantage (Again we are talking about difficulty.)

Do you see what Im going for here?

a few flaws.

1) we are talking abvout Job Complexity individually, not the layers upon their role in a Fight, the difficulty of its Rotation and Optimisation in a Vacuum.

2) im not saying to Remove Complexity, im saying SE Are removing Complexity, and while u state "it'll drive players who crave complexity to leave the game" i assure you, it'll likely be Less then the playerbase Who Would leave if the game Was Maximised in its Requirements to Understand the complexity.

we are talking about Designing the DPS potientals Based on the Individual Skill curves of the job, For example how difficult the rotation is to perform, how much practice it requires to play, to what level u must go to Fully optimise its DPS, in this sense, its Designed to say that Ninja and summoner should be the highest DPSers in the game, and that RDM, Dancer, Samarui, Dragoon, Bard, machinist Should be Punished for the simplicity in gameplay.

lets Push this over all the Jobs, rankingf from Hardest to Easiest, This will be influenced by speed runners choices, peoples Decisions in meta and more, a Large Chunk of the playerbase will Reroll to the Top 3 Jobs depending on which one they prefer the most, and be hit by Skill Walls, Some players can perform to those levels or just cannot Manage it, so their punishment is juist permanantly to be Locked out of PF and more.

so u entirely exclude a Playerbase of Players from Content because they cant reach the hardest job in the game in the hardest difficulty content in the game. its important to HAVE complexity as a option, but these sorts of reinforcements of it are needless, Ur Percentile and more is of comparison to other players Playing the same Job as you, theres No need to want Other Jobs nerfed based on their difficulty of play compared to yours.

Uptime, Mobility, Utility and RDPS Are all factors in balancing, Hence why ur melee Jobs Typically will do more DPS then Physical Ranged Jobs. Because Physical Ranged have no concern to mechanics as it doesnt interupt their flow.

we are talking about two very different types of Difficulty, and I wouldnt say Melee Are fundamentally harder to play then Ranged Just because of that, Although sure their DPS isnt hit, they still have to abide by the Conditions and Still have to work around the mechanics of the fight. thats Not Increased or decreasing Difficulty, the same AoE Requires the same knowledge by any Role of DPS. a Loss in DPS per Second of the mechanic going on is a Layer of balancing.

but this is a very different argument to "Ninja should be top DPS because its the hardest job to play at a high level."

i've never said BLM Should have its DPS, it should be levelled with SAM realistically as they both fulfill the Same role in their roles, Pure DPS with no utility. if anything 99% of the problems in the DPS Disparity atm is in the top four.

Compare DPS differences to SHB and SB.

RDM was Once 1100 DPS behind BLM, its now 2700 For example. I dont know why this has become a Thing, but the Stretchs of DPS Now in SHB are Sooo far wide its causing problems everywhere.

we need to go back to when the utility tax was 1000 Odd DPS difference, Not the 2-3k We've stretched out now, TA, TS, Embolden, Brotherhood, Dragonsight are Great forms of Utility, but none of them are achieving to 2-3k DPS we're Losing for them. theres no need to Bring Job Difficulty or Role difficulty when it comes to simply seeing that this is a issue, I aint here for a bias argument to who warrants More buffs, i Simply state.

The Problems are Across the board, Ninja, Summoner, RDM, SAM, Machinist, bard and Dancer have Been Over-punished for their utility. And the DPS Disparity needs re-evaluating as currently 2-3k Differences are gamebreaking and They'll exiling this jobs in PFs and more due to players knowing that They are simply outclassed by other choices currently. and while i firmly agree DPS Roles should be balanced differently based on their pros and cons such as Uptimes, Mobility problems, Loss of DPS During Mechanics and More. i would Like to see us Balanced Within our own roles first, why? because u wont see a day where RDM will Replace a Ninja, oir a Ninja Replace a Summoner. but u will see a Dragoon Replace a Ninja, a BLM Replace a RDM. Do i beleive RDM should outDPS a Dragoon? No, do i think it should do the Same DPS as a Monk, no. but that doesnt make it balanced within its role at all.. BLM Outclasses RDM entirely.

[CrashofZenki]

Nice straw man but I'll address your argument nevertheless. DPS jobs should be balanced based on whether they are ranged, melee, have cast bars, and group utility. DPS should not be even and I don't know anybody that said it should be. The order that they are presently in isn't terrible though I would move a couple jobs around. It's the disparity between the jobs that needs tuning.

My order:
BLM/SAM/MCH=MNK=DRG/RDM=BRD=SMN/DNC=NIN

**NIN only if trick attack stays same.**

I just want the gaps cleaned up. BLM at 13-14% above RDM is not okay.

If we are going by ranged, melee, cast bars, group utility etc.. Why would you place NIN dead last? And are you talking about Personal DPS or Total DPS given (personal DPS + utility buff numbers from party)
And is this the order of the line up where the DPS perform perfect in a perfect party? aka everyone is 100th percentile?

Well, if perfect party and Total DPS given.. My list is..

NIN=SMN/DRG=MNK/SAM=BLM=RDM/DNC=MCH=BRD

Again, this is 100th percentile hardcore party of the century.

Weaknesses that will change the total DPS done in those jobs:

NIN = Interupt of Ten-Chi-Jin, Accidentally bunny mudra, mechanics forced disengage, slower button input, positional neglect, missed TA, team not utilizing TA window/Too low total pDPS of full party.
SMN = Misstimed weaves, moving because of mechanics, needing to res/cure, neglect of burst windows.

DRG = Forced disengages, loss of self buff or poorly managed buffs, solo dragons eye, floor tanking due to poorly planed jumps, positional neglect.
MNK = Forced Engages, loss of GL, positional neglect, poor cooldown management.

SAM= Forced Engages, poor management of cooldowns and buff aplications.
BLM= Poor use of Aetherial Manipulation and Between the Lines, loss of self buffs.
RDM= Forced Disegage and/or forced delay of melee combo, VerRaise/VerCure useage, loss/lack of procs, poor management of cooldowns.

DNC = Poor cooldown management, bad dance partner, unobservant of surroundings.
BRD/MCH = Poor cooldown management, unobservant of surroundings.

Aka.. The more variables for a DPS to hit maximum DPS output should be key factor, as thats gonna be the jobs with the highest top and bottom numbers.

While the above players would have MNK/DRG/SAM/BLM/RDM as the highest.

And total average and bellow we would see the top shifted to lead with MCH/DNC/BRD with BLM/SAM/RDM just under

[Kejara]

If we are going by ranged, melee, cast bars, group utility etc.. Why would you place NIN dead last? And are you talking about Personal DPS or Total DPS given (personal DPS + utility buff numbers from party)

Yeah, sorry I should specified I was only talking about pDPS ranking. rDPS for Ninja should be equal to DRG/MNK in my opinion and DNC rDPS should be equal to BRD. They should never be dead last for rDPS, sorry for the confusion.

For additional clarity.
Proposed rDPS rankings:
BLM/SAM/MCH=MNK=DRG=NIN/RDM=BRD=SMN=DNC

[Atmaweapon510]

Yeah, sorry I should specified I was only talking about pDPS ranking. rDPS for Ninja should be equal to DRG/MNK in my opinion and DNC rDPS should be equal to BRD. They should never be dead last for rDPS, sorry for the confusion.

For additional clarity.
Proposed rDPS rankings:
BLM/SAM/MCH=MNK=DRG=NIN/RDM=BRD=SMN=DNC

You do know that that this proposed ranking basically states that a NIN who optimally coordinates a trick attack with every BLM in a Raid would contribute less than bringing another BLM right?

[Drayos]

You do know that that this proposed ranking basically states that a NIN who optimally coordinates a trick attack with every BLM in a Raid would contribute less than bringing another BLM right?

imma Pressume they've mistaken with the RDPS v PDPS as theres actually two individual Rankings now, being between RDPS and PDPS which counter balance each other.

RDPS Should be.

Ninja = Dancer / Bard = Summoner = RDM / Dragoon = Monk / BLM = SAM = MCH

PDPS Should be

BLM = SAM = Machinist / Monk = Dragoon / Summoner = RDM = Bard / Ninja = Dancer.

people will respond with this too "Bard has more uptime then Summoner" im ofcourse talking in fight, i am aware to balance these Summoner innately has to have a higher DPS Potiental to Actually Match bard given its Uptime is less then bard. the point is in a Live Fight they should likely look in this order. im aware that Positionings, Uptime and more are relevent also to balance which is Why ur never going to see Summoner and RDM do identical DPS. but the DPS Disparity shouldnt be Huge either roughly keeping the same sorta order.

I know Machinist being apart of the "pure DPS" Catagory seems to have some players on Edge, but ur going to have to accept, Machinist to be viable needs to be the highest Ranged physical DPS. it being Limited to being behind Dragoon/monk due to "uptime measures" is Simply incorrect. because ur not balancing in the factor that Dragoon and Monk will naturally be higher then MCH in RDPS Because MCH only offers PDPS. so the RDPS Factor will balance this out itself as a DRG/Monk will still likely out DPS it in a RDPS Setting, merely just established PDPS Will be higher when removing buffs etc etc from the measurements.

[Wayfinder3]

imma Pressume they've mistaken with the RDPS v PDPS as theres actually two individual Rankings now, being between RDPS and PDPS which counter balance each other.

RDPS Should be.

Ninja = Dancer / Bard = Summoner = RDM / Dragoon = Monk / BLM = SAM = MCH

PDPS Should be

BLM = SAM = Machinist / Monk = Dragoon / Summoner = RDM = Bard / Ninja = Dancer.

people will respond with this too "Bard has more uptime then Summoner" im ofcourse talking in fight, i am aware to balance these Summoner innately has to have a higher DPS Potiental to Actually Match bard given its Uptime is less then bard. the point is in a Live Fight they should likely look in this order. im aware that Positionings, Uptime and more are relevent also to balance which is Why ur never going to see Summoner and RDM do identical DPS. but the DPS Disparity shouldnt be Huge either roughly keeping the same sorta order.

I know Machinist being apart of the "pure DPS" Catagory seems to have some players on Edge, but ur going to have to accept, Machinist to be viable needs to be the highest Ranged physical DPS. it being Limited to being behind Dragoon/monk due to "uptime measures" is Simply incorrect. because ur not balancing in the factor that Dragoon and Monk will naturally be higher then MCH in RDPS Because MCH only offers PDPS. so the RDPS Factor will balance this out itself as a DRG/Monk will still likely out DPS it in a RDPS Setting, merely just established PDPS Will be higher when removing buffs etc etc from the measurements.

Overall I think personal dps should be
BLM=SAM > MCH > MNK = SMN > DRG > RDM = BRD > NIN = DNC

Rdps should look more like this
DNC > NIN = RDM > BRD > DRG > MNK = SMN > BLM = SAM = MCH*

*Add refresh as MP management back to Ranged and this will contribute to MCH rdps making it slightly more viable as a progression pure dps but it’s ranged benefits should restrict it in comparisons to BLM and SAM

[kajv95]

*Add refresh as MP management back to Ranged and this will contribute to MCH rdps making it slightly more viable as a progression pure dps but it’s ranged benefits should restrict it in comparisons to BLM and SAM

Add that asterisk to BRD, make NIN > RDM and I'll agree. Else crank pdps for RDM up a little and have rdps between those 3 be NIN > BRD > RDM