RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[Kokomi]

DPS jobs should be balanced based on whether they are ranged, melee, have cast bars, and group utility.

My order:
BLM/SAM/MCH=MNK=DRG/RDM=BRD=SMN/DNC=NIN

Please explain how being "ranged, melee, or having cast bars" should factor into job balance and why this is better than balancing based on difficulty.

Also, I'm curious why you're being so aggressive with someone who has a different opinion. Apparently I'm a "special snowflake" because I play ninja and I said it's a difficult class, then you said "Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm glad you don't balance MMOs as that would be a horrid way to balance a MMO" and you keep trying to dismiss my arguments as "cherry pick" or "straw man."

Edit: I read over my original post and I think I didn't say exactly what I meant. I think all classes should do enough DPS to be able to clear savage content, i.e. not be a liability for their team. This seems to be the case for RDM. However if RDM is easier to play than other classes then I see no reason that it should do the same amount of DPS.

[Kejara]

Please explain how being "ranged, melee, or having cast bars" should factor into job balance and why this is better than balancing based on difficulty.

They already factor into job balance in FFXIV. Physical ranged are penalized by a ranged tax and for having free mobility. Melee, excluding NIN who loses DPS for the utility brought, do more damage because they have to stay close to boss. BLM does more damage because it brings no utility and because of long casts (cast bars) is heavily punished by movement. Whether the methodology they currently employ is better than your alternative is a matter of opinion and one I care not to debate as our opinions clearly differ. However, at no time, to my recollection, did anybody say from SE say that a job will do less DPS because it's perceived to be less complex or difficult. This is something that was likely arbitrarily dreamed up by the community. Probably by people who seek validation because they presently play a perceived "difficult" class and an "easier" class shouldn't be able to pull of similar DPS numbers. I'll say this again though. Difficulty or complexity is subjective. Some people still hate RDM despite it being dubbed an "easy" class perhaps because they just don't like being rooted in place for any casts. RDM has received very little revision since inception. Did it ever occur to you that this supposed easy class doesn't receive many major changes because it might be the benchmark for all future class designs. It is my opinion that they believe they really nailed RDM. Anyway, something you find difficult may not be difficult to the next person. This extends outside of game and into real life. Some people are just better at performing certain kinds of tasks so what you find difficult they may find easy.

[Kokomi]

They already factor into job balance in FFXIV. Physical ranged are penalized by a ranged tax and for having free mobility. Melee, excluding NIN who loses DPS for the utility brought, do more damage because they have to stay close to boss. BLM does more damage because it brings no utility and because of long casts (cast bars) is heavily punished by movement.

What you're saying is "if it easier to attack and dodge, then the class should do less damage." This doesn't seem very far from balancing based on difficulty since uptime is something that can be optimized.

[Wayfinder3]

What you're saying is "if it easier to attack and dodge, then the class should do less damage." This doesn't seem very far from balancing based on difficulty since uptime is something that can be optimized.

She's saying that Samurai and Black Mage have to interact with mechanics more so than Machinist and as a result, they should do more damage as they have to try harder by that metric. Technically this is also true of Red Mage as RDM has to interact with mechanics differently as a Melee DPS or a Caster but it taxes the DPS it should be given by having access to Verraise and Embolden. Black Mage is only justfiably stronger than RDM because of it's utility, both have very high levels of optimization when it comes to fight design. The community has just been fed a myth that BLMs have to be super good to do mechanics and keep dps and RDM aren't trying nearly as hard to do the same thing. They're really even in difficulty or close enough that it's subjective but for different reasons.

[Kejara]

Please explain how being "ranged, melee, or having cast bars" should factor into job balance and why this is better than balancing based on difficulty.

Also, I'm curious why you're being so aggressive with someone who has a different opinion. Apparently I'm a "special snowflake" because I play ninja and I said it's a difficult class, then you said "Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm glad you don't balance MMOs as that would be a horrid way to balance a MMO" and you keep trying to dismiss my arguments as "cherry pick" or "straw man."

Edit: I read over my original post and I think I didn't say exactly what I meant. I think all classes should do enough DPS to be able to clear savage content, i.e. not be a liability for their team. This seems to be the case for RDM. However if RDM is easier to play than other classes then I see no reason that it should do the same amount of DPS.

I'm not trying to be aggressive. I do respect your opinion. However, when arguing your point, you selected data only that would bolster your stance and omitted data that would not. AKA cherry picking. Then you misrepresented what myself and others are saying by employing a hyperbolic and perhaps rhetorical question in an attempt to change the argument into one you thought that would be easier to defeat. AKA straw man.

e.g., Party 1: "I think RDM is under performing and should be buffed." Party 2: "So you would make all DPS equal?"

I don't mean to offend you and I am not out to get you. This isn't personal. Just a civil argument.

[CrashofZenki]

Nice straw man but I'll address your argument nevertheless. DPS jobs should be balanced based on whether they are ranged, melee, have cast bars, and group utility. DPS should not be even and I don't know anybody that said it should be. The order that they are presently in isn't terrible though I would move a couple jobs around. It's the disparity between the jobs that needs tuning.

My order:
BLM/SAM/MCH=MNK=DRG/RDM=BRD=SMN/DNC=NIN

**NIN only if trick attack stays same.**

I just want the gaps cleaned up. BLM at 13-14% above RDM is not okay.

If we are going by ranged, melee, cast bars, group utility etc.. Why would you place NIN dead last? And are you talking about Personal DPS or Total DPS given (personal DPS + utility buff numbers from party)
And is this the order of the line up where the DPS perform perfect in a perfect party? aka everyone is 100th percentile?

Well, if perfect party and Total DPS given.. My list is..

NIN=SMN/DRG=MNK/SAM=BLM=RDM/DNC=MCH=BRD

Again, this is 100th percentile hardcore party of the century.

Weaknesses that will change the total DPS done in those jobs:

NIN = Interupt of Ten-Chi-Jin, Accidentally bunny mudra, mechanics forced disengage, slower button input, positional neglect, missed TA, team not utilizing TA window/Too low total pDPS of full party.
SMN = Misstimed weaves, moving because of mechanics, needing to res/cure, neglect of burst windows.

DRG = Forced disengages, loss of self buff or poorly managed buffs, solo dragons eye, floor tanking due to poorly planed jumps, positional neglect.
MNK = Forced Engages, loss of GL, positional neglect, poor cooldown management.

SAM= Forced Engages, poor management of cooldowns and buff aplications.
BLM= Poor use of Aetherial Manipulation and Between the Lines, loss of self buffs.
RDM= Forced Disegage and/or forced delay of melee combo, VerRaise/VerCure useage, loss/lack of procs, poor management of cooldowns.

DNC = Poor cooldown management, bad dance partner, unobservant of surroundings.
BRD/MCH = Poor cooldown management, unobservant of surroundings.

Aka.. The more variables for a DPS to hit maximum DPS output should be key factor, as thats gonna be the jobs with the highest top and bottom numbers.

While the above players would have MNK/DRG/SAM/BLM/RDM as the highest.

And total average and bellow we would see the top shifted to lead with MCH/DNC/BRD with BLM/SAM/RDM just under

[Kejara]

If we are going by ranged, melee, cast bars, group utility etc.. Why would you place NIN dead last? And are you talking about Personal DPS or Total DPS given (personal DPS + utility buff numbers from party)

Yeah, sorry I should specified I was only talking about pDPS ranking. rDPS for Ninja should be equal to DRG/MNK in my opinion and DNC rDPS should be equal to BRD. They should never be dead last for rDPS, sorry for the confusion.

For additional clarity.
Proposed rDPS rankings:
BLM/SAM/MCH=MNK=DRG=NIN/RDM=BRD=SMN=DNC

[Atmaweapon510]

Yeah, sorry I should specified I was only talking about pDPS ranking. rDPS for Ninja should be equal to DRG/MNK in my opinion and DNC rDPS should be equal to BRD. They should never be dead last for rDPS, sorry for the confusion.

For additional clarity.
Proposed rDPS rankings:
BLM/SAM/MCH=MNK=DRG=NIN/RDM=BRD=SMN=DNC

You do know that that this proposed ranking basically states that a NIN who optimally coordinates a trick attack with every BLM in a Raid would contribute less than bringing another BLM right?

[Drayos]

You do know that that this proposed ranking basically states that a NIN who optimally coordinates a trick attack with every BLM in a Raid would contribute less than bringing another BLM right?

imma Pressume they've mistaken with the RDPS v PDPS as theres actually two individual Rankings now, being between RDPS and PDPS which counter balance each other.

RDPS Should be.

Ninja = Dancer / Bard = Summoner = RDM / Dragoon = Monk / BLM = SAM = MCH

PDPS Should be

BLM = SAM = Machinist / Monk = Dragoon / Summoner = RDM = Bard / Ninja = Dancer.

people will respond with this too "Bard has more uptime then Summoner" im ofcourse talking in fight, i am aware to balance these Summoner innately has to have a higher DPS Potiental to Actually Match bard given its Uptime is less then bard. the point is in a Live Fight they should likely look in this order. im aware that Positionings, Uptime and more are relevent also to balance which is Why ur never going to see Summoner and RDM do identical DPS. but the DPS Disparity shouldnt be Huge either roughly keeping the same sorta order.

I know Machinist being apart of the "pure DPS" Catagory seems to have some players on Edge, but ur going to have to accept, Machinist to be viable needs to be the highest Ranged physical DPS. it being Limited to being behind Dragoon/monk due to "uptime measures" is Simply incorrect. because ur not balancing in the factor that Dragoon and Monk will naturally be higher then MCH in RDPS Because MCH only offers PDPS. so the RDPS Factor will balance this out itself as a DRG/Monk will still likely out DPS it in a RDPS Setting, merely just established PDPS Will be higher when removing buffs etc etc from the measurements.