RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[Dommy-Notatop]

While I can get not wanting the res at the cost of DPS, I don't see it going away and I wouldn't want to see it go away. While yes it puts RDM on the lower end of the DPS spectrum, RDM still brings more then enough DPS to clear anything. I know we are only talking savage here for the most part, but we do have to take a step back and remember a majority of the playerbase never takes part in that. In a casual PUG RDM raise and cure is amazing. Taking their support away from them there will anger a huge amount of players who play the class for that very reason, I don't see it happening.On the other hand if you made RDM do as good rDPS as BLM it would be taken over it due to its back up support. I get that its frustrating that if its not used it adds nothing but it still exist and it does have use.

Like I said though I'm all for them closing the gap a bit between the current top rDPS and those under them but if you remove the outliers things actually look fairly balanced.

Like before i agree with everything said here. Rez in other content is fantastic and I enjoy the utility a lot in non savage content. The only point I want to make on this thread is about savage content, the party finder and community gatekeeping. As stated in the initial post im not a theory crafter so pure balance isnt my objective here. As far as rDPS goes Im definately not arguing that we should have an equal amount to classes without non-dps utility. Shortening the rDPS gap would be very nice and most of the classes feel fair to me in regards to DPS with the possible exception of the current top 3 DPS's. I'm in no way stating that RDM can't complete the raids because all of the classes most certainly can! I just want to be able to do savage content without being refused because of the class I enjoy the most.

I very much value your opinion (and all others on this post) and thank you for supporting the mix of ideas!!!

[RiotSiren]

Like before i agree with everything said here. Rez in other content is fantastic and I enjoy the utility a lot in non savage content. The only point I want to make on this thread is about savage content, the party finder and community gatekeeping. As stated in the initial post im not a theory crafter so pure balance isnt my objective here. As far as rDPS goes Im definately not arguing that we should have an equal amount to classes without non-dps utility. Shortening the rDPS gap would be very nice and most of the classes feel fair to me in regards to DPS with the possible exception of the current top 3 DPS's. I'm in no way stating that RDM can't complete the raids because all of the classes most certainly can! I just want to be able to do savage content without being refused because of the class I enjoy the most.

I very much value your opinion (and all others on this post) and thank you for supporting the mix of ideas!!!

Same!

I agree you should not be excluded just because your class choice. What I'm saying is even if you are really pushing for rDPS you shouldn't be excluded. RDM does about 100-200 less rDPS then a MCH at the same skill level, which only amounts to a roughly 1-2% difference, which is not even noticeable. The reason I brought up casual content was that balance doesn't happen in a vacuum, taking away RDM ability to chain res in savage takes it away EVERYWHERE. The res is a big reason why the class is very popular with more casual players and taking it away to give RMD more rDPS would make them very unhappy.

All I'm saying is fiddling with RDM ability to support is not really a viable option with out making alot of players very upset. I really hate to say this is a player issue and not the devs fault but it sort of is. Looking at the numbers RDM is actually pretty fine right now and players, ever the hard core ones, should not be excluding it from their groups.

Unfortunately things wont change until the perception that RDM is "weak" goes away.

[Kejara]

Same!

Looking at the numbers RDM is actually pretty fine right now and players, ever the hard core ones, should not be excluding it from their groups.

Unfortunately things wont change until the perception that RDM is "weak" goes away.

Comparatively speaking RDM is weak. You compared it to MCH which is a pure ranged DPS that is currently also under performing in my opinion. You should be comparing it to BLM, the top caster job. I calculated the percent difference between BLM and RDM on FF logs for savage Eden content across multiple tiers (max, 90, 75, 50, 25 percentile). There is a 13-14% between RDM and BLM across all tiers. So even arguing that BLMs take more skill and under perform at lower skill levels doesn't apply here. At least not in savage content. A BLM with a 25 percentile parse is still roughly 13-14% difference from a 25 percentile parse RDM. I'm not certain how you consider a caster with that much disparity from the top caster job not weak. What percent difference do you believe is acceptable? I say that the percent difference should be about half of what it currently is and it would be acceptable. To me, the difference is huge.

[Kabooa]

I'm not certain how you consider a caster with that much disparity from the top caster job not weak. What percent difference do you believe is acceptable? I say that the percent difference should be about half of what it currently is and it would be acceptable. To me, the difference is huge.

Back when the difference was only 5-7%, Black mages were heavily excluded and not wanted by the general populace.

[Miminming]

No! back then BLM have far less mobility which make most of them a rather meh output, thats the biggest reason BLM is excluded too hard to use in full potencial...

Now? Farrr easier to use lots of teleport wider damage gap so that even a medicore BLM still have higher damage than the greater SMN/RDM

Btw right now in jpn server lots of party exclude RDM but not SMN again the reason is not RDM is bellow SMN in DPS in fact its a little above SMN right now, the reason they excluded RDM is lots of low player skill (at least they think so) and high death rate for RDM (proven by number from a certain site)

[Kabooa]

No! back then BLM have far less mobility which make most of them a rather meh output, thats the biggest reason BLM is excluded too hard to use in full potencial...

Now? Farrr easier to use lots of teleport wider damage gap so that even a medicore BLM still have higher damage than the greater SMN/RDM

Btw right now in jpn server lots of party exclude RDM but not SMN again the reason is not RDM is bellow SMN in DPS in fact its a little above SMN right now, the reason they excluded RDM is lots of low player skill (at least they think so) and high death rate for RDM (proven by number from a certain site)

Black Mages had very few mobility issues in Stormblood. Fact of the matter is they didn't bring enough damage to warrant not having a raise, until Alphascape.

Deny it all you want, but that's the simple truth.

Dump the raise and we'll talk.

[Miminming]

True for the until alphascape part, but still the main reason people exclude them is not just the lack of raise and dps difference (of course that too) its just too many meh BLM... and not everybody is as pro as you BLM mobility is kinda big issue on how hard the class was in stromblood... unlike now

[kajv95]

DM does about 100-200 less rDPS then a MCH at the same skill level, which only amounts to a roughly 1-2% difference, which is not even noticeable.

I really hate to say this is a player issue and not the devs fault but it sort of is. Looking at the numbers RDM is actually pretty fine right now and players, ever the hard core ones, should not be excluding it from their groups.

Unfortunately things wont change until the perception that RDM is "weak" goes away.

MCH is also among the classes that could stand to get a buff, but...

Anyway, the perception that RDM is weak is there for a reason. Comparatively, it just is weak. A lot of jobs in the game are just comparatively weak right now. A player-made issue does not just appear out of nowhere. While I can certainly agree that the raiding base is overreacting, ultimately the current job balance utterly fails to "avoid forcing people into meta compositions" while also screwing over many jobs in the process.

RDM, like the majority of dps jobs, needs to have the gap tightened a little. How we go about this isn't really the issue here. Nerfing the top or buffing the rest, either way the gap between the top and the bottom is far, far too high. Personally I believe buffing the bottom is a better option since it's less re-tooling in the case of rdps skills and such (specifically DNC is easy to break).

[wereotter]

MCH is also among the classes that could stand to get a buff, but...

Anyway, the perception that RDM is weak is there for a reason. Comparatively, it just is weak. A lot of jobs in the game are just comparatively weak right now. A player-made issue does not just appear out of nowhere. While I can certainly agree that the raiding base is overreacting, ultimately the current job balance utterly fails to "avoid forcing people into meta compositions" while also screwing over many jobs in the process.

RDM, like the majority of dps jobs, needs to have the gap tightened a little. How we go about this isn't really the issue here. Nerfing the top or buffing the rest, either way the gap between the top and the bottom is far, far too high. Personally I believe buffing the bottom is a better option since it's less re-tooling in the case of rdps skills and such (specifically DNC is easy to break).

Removing the falloff damage buff from Embolden so it's a straight up 10% buff for 20 seconds while also removing the physical damage restriction would go a LONG way in increasing Red Mage raid DPS contribution.

The only other way is to make the job get some kind of buff that gets removed when they cast Verraise or a debuff after casting it. This could apply to summoners as well, making it so the job isn't punished for having raise in fights where it's never used.