RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[RiotSiren]

I'd say the problem here is that there *is* an obvious easier way out, and people confident in their weekly clears pugging simply have no reason to bring an RDM along at all. You're arguing that RDM is great for prog. Yeah, that's great and true! But nobody was arguing that it wasn't. Personally, I'm arguing for *all* rDPS to go closer to the current top 4 since nerfing the top 4 would cause even more issues for dancers and ninjas. In this equation, RDM would still be the weakest as by the nature of the job, but it shouldn't be this weak.

If not buffed in the traditional sense, there has to be a trade-off for not having to use your raise/cure and gives RDM a small boost that helps it flourish a little more outside of progging. Would give it a small layer of additional depth as well.

I'm more arguing that RDM is already fine in all scenarios on top of being good for prog. Don't get me wrong I feel like all classes should be around the same level in terms of rDPS. BLM/MNK/DRG are over tuned atm and should honesty be brought down a bit and everyone else brought up a bit. I'm not saying RDM couldn't use some love, more that its not nearly as bad as people make it out to be and people excluding them from PF should really rethink their stance, especially this early in the raid tier.

The way I see it, it's a DPS that provides decent party DPS support, and the ability to help out should things go sideways. On top of that it has good mobility, is ranged, and is fairly easy to play, its spot near the bottom of the rDPS chart is warranted. If not RDM then who else should be below them with the current way classes are done. Someone has to be at the bottom and RDM has a good excuse to be there. I don't think it should be there by alot mind you but... well it isn't currently(Dancer is actually lower). Like I said someone has to be at the bottom and RDM gives a group a nice parachute that other classes cant provide to the same extent.

Not everything is a speed clear and if you are, most likely are gonna only going to go for the top half of the DPS anyways, though I don't think RDM would really slow you down at all in its current state if played well.

[Dommy-Notatop]

I don't think RDM would really slow you down at all in its current state if played well.

I agree with you on all other points. BUT RDM is being slowed down from clears, however its the community's perception of them and the meta thats putting on the brakes. (As i stated in the original post this applies for PF pugs only)
I would like SE to make them feel valued for their DPS and dps utility rather than just raise.
Raise in itself is a big point of contention in the caster community now. Yoshi-P said in the last live letter that BLM does so much damage because it doesnt have access to raise. Casters dont want to do less damage because they can raise, ive seen a lot of people calling for its nerf or full on removal from Magic DPS for this reason. (And despite my love for raise in easier content im inclined to agree with them.)

[RiotSiren]

I agree with you on all other points. BUT RDM is being slowed down from clears, however its the community's perception of them and the meta thats putting on the brakes. (As i stated in the original post this applies for PF pugs only)
I would like SE to make them feel valued for their DPS and dps utility rather than just raise.
Raise in itself is a big point of contention in the caster community now. Yoshi-P said in the last live letter that BLM does so much damage because it doesnt have access to raise. Casters dont want to do less damage because they can raise, ive seen a lot of people calling for its nerf or full on removal from Magic DPS for this reason. (And despite my love for raise in easier content im inclined to agree with them.)

While I can get not wanting the res at the cost of DPS, I don't see it going away and I wouldn't want to see it go away. While yes it puts RDM on the lower end of the DPS spectrum, RDM still brings more then enough DPS to clear anything. I know we are only talking savage here for the most part, but we do have to take a step back and remember a majority of the playerbase never takes part in that. In a casual PUG RDM raise and cure is amazing. Taking their support away from them there will anger a huge amount of players who play the class for that very reason, I don't see it happening.On the other hand if you made RDM do as good rDPS as BLM it would be taken over it due to its back up support. I get that its frustrating that if its not used it adds nothing but it still exist and it does have use.

Like I said though I'm all for them closing the gap a bit between the current top rDPS and those under them but if you remove the outliers things actually look fairly balanced.

[Dommy-Notatop]

While I can get not wanting the res at the cost of DPS, I don't see it going away and I wouldn't want to see it go away. While yes it puts RDM on the lower end of the DPS spectrum, RDM still brings more then enough DPS to clear anything. I know we are only talking savage here for the most part, but we do have to take a step back and remember a majority of the playerbase never takes part in that. In a casual PUG RDM raise and cure is amazing. Taking their support away from them there will anger a huge amount of players who play the class for that very reason, I don't see it happening.On the other hand if you made RDM do as good rDPS as BLM it would be taken over it due to its back up support. I get that its frustrating that if its not used it adds nothing but it still exist and it does have use.

Like I said though I'm all for them closing the gap a bit between the current top rDPS and those under them but if you remove the outliers things actually look fairly balanced.

Like before i agree with everything said here. Rez in other content is fantastic and I enjoy the utility a lot in non savage content. The only point I want to make on this thread is about savage content, the party finder and community gatekeeping. As stated in the initial post im not a theory crafter so pure balance isnt my objective here. As far as rDPS goes Im definately not arguing that we should have an equal amount to classes without non-dps utility. Shortening the rDPS gap would be very nice and most of the classes feel fair to me in regards to DPS with the possible exception of the current top 3 DPS's. I'm in no way stating that RDM can't complete the raids because all of the classes most certainly can! I just want to be able to do savage content without being refused because of the class I enjoy the most.

I very much value your opinion (and all others on this post) and thank you for supporting the mix of ideas!!!

[RiotSiren]

Like before i agree with everything said here. Rez in other content is fantastic and I enjoy the utility a lot in non savage content. The only point I want to make on this thread is about savage content, the party finder and community gatekeeping. As stated in the initial post im not a theory crafter so pure balance isnt my objective here. As far as rDPS goes Im definately not arguing that we should have an equal amount to classes without non-dps utility. Shortening the rDPS gap would be very nice and most of the classes feel fair to me in regards to DPS with the possible exception of the current top 3 DPS's. I'm in no way stating that RDM can't complete the raids because all of the classes most certainly can! I just want to be able to do savage content without being refused because of the class I enjoy the most.

I very much value your opinion (and all others on this post) and thank you for supporting the mix of ideas!!!

Same!

I agree you should not be excluded just because your class choice. What I'm saying is even if you are really pushing for rDPS you shouldn't be excluded. RDM does about 100-200 less rDPS then a MCH at the same skill level, which only amounts to a roughly 1-2% difference, which is not even noticeable. The reason I brought up casual content was that balance doesn't happen in a vacuum, taking away RDM ability to chain res in savage takes it away EVERYWHERE. The res is a big reason why the class is very popular with more casual players and taking it away to give RMD more rDPS would make them very unhappy.

All I'm saying is fiddling with RDM ability to support is not really a viable option with out making alot of players very upset. I really hate to say this is a player issue and not the devs fault but it sort of is. Looking at the numbers RDM is actually pretty fine right now and players, ever the hard core ones, should not be excluding it from their groups.

Unfortunately things wont change until the perception that RDM is "weak" goes away.

[Kejara]

Same!

Looking at the numbers RDM is actually pretty fine right now and players, ever the hard core ones, should not be excluding it from their groups.

Unfortunately things wont change until the perception that RDM is "weak" goes away.

Comparatively speaking RDM is weak. You compared it to MCH which is a pure ranged DPS that is currently also under performing in my opinion. You should be comparing it to BLM, the top caster job. I calculated the percent difference between BLM and RDM on FF logs for savage Eden content across multiple tiers (max, 90, 75, 50, 25 percentile). There is a 13-14% between RDM and BLM across all tiers. So even arguing that BLMs take more skill and under perform at lower skill levels doesn't apply here. At least not in savage content. A BLM with a 25 percentile parse is still roughly 13-14% difference from a 25 percentile parse RDM. I'm not certain how you consider a caster with that much disparity from the top caster job not weak. What percent difference do you believe is acceptable? I say that the percent difference should be about half of what it currently is and it would be acceptable. To me, the difference is huge.

[Kabooa]

I'm not certain how you consider a caster with that much disparity from the top caster job not weak. What percent difference do you believe is acceptable? I say that the percent difference should be about half of what it currently is and it would be acceptable. To me, the difference is huge.

Back when the difference was only 5-7%, Black mages were heavily excluded and not wanted by the general populace.

[kajv95]

DM does about 100-200 less rDPS then a MCH at the same skill level, which only amounts to a roughly 1-2% difference, which is not even noticeable.

I really hate to say this is a player issue and not the devs fault but it sort of is. Looking at the numbers RDM is actually pretty fine right now and players, ever the hard core ones, should not be excluding it from their groups.

Unfortunately things wont change until the perception that RDM is "weak" goes away.

MCH is also among the classes that could stand to get a buff, but...

Anyway, the perception that RDM is weak is there for a reason. Comparatively, it just is weak. A lot of jobs in the game are just comparatively weak right now. A player-made issue does not just appear out of nowhere. While I can certainly agree that the raiding base is overreacting, ultimately the current job balance utterly fails to "avoid forcing people into meta compositions" while also screwing over many jobs in the process.

RDM, like the majority of dps jobs, needs to have the gap tightened a little. How we go about this isn't really the issue here. Nerfing the top or buffing the rest, either way the gap between the top and the bottom is far, far too high. Personally I believe buffing the bottom is a better option since it's less re-tooling in the case of rdps skills and such (specifically DNC is easy to break).

[wereotter]

MCH is also among the classes that could stand to get a buff, but...

Anyway, the perception that RDM is weak is there for a reason. Comparatively, it just is weak. A lot of jobs in the game are just comparatively weak right now. A player-made issue does not just appear out of nowhere. While I can certainly agree that the raiding base is overreacting, ultimately the current job balance utterly fails to "avoid forcing people into meta compositions" while also screwing over many jobs in the process.

RDM, like the majority of dps jobs, needs to have the gap tightened a little. How we go about this isn't really the issue here. Nerfing the top or buffing the rest, either way the gap between the top and the bottom is far, far too high. Personally I believe buffing the bottom is a better option since it's less re-tooling in the case of rdps skills and such (specifically DNC is easy to break).

Removing the falloff damage buff from Embolden so it's a straight up 10% buff for 20 seconds while also removing the physical damage restriction would go a LONG way in increasing Red Mage raid DPS contribution.

The only other way is to make the job get some kind of buff that gets removed when they cast Verraise or a debuff after casting it. This could apply to summoners as well, making it so the job isn't punished for having raise in fights where it's never used.