RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[Dommy-Notatop]

I seriously don't understand how people think class difficulty has and even should effect damage numbers.
I get that having a lot to do to just do the same amount of DPS feels bad sometimes, but the classes should probably be better investigated by SE so they all have their neuances. What's difficult for one person might not be for another, Pure apm isnt an indicator of difficulty either.

Also as far as ive seen ninja and summoner are the hardest to play right now and get absolutely nothing from it.
Also some people say black mage is the most difficult and therefore best damage. But black mage being difficult comes from older HW mentality when the timing on AF was hella strict. Now BLM really isnt that hard at all to understand. just like every class the nuances are there but compared to before it's much less punishing to play.

[Drayos]

I seriously don't understand how people think class difficulty has and even should effect damage numbers.
I get that having a lot to do to just do the same amount of DPS feels bad sometimes, but the classes should probably be better investigated by SE so they all have their neuances. What's difficult for one person might not be for another, Pure apm isnt an indicator of difficulty either.

Also as far as ive seen ninja and summoner are the hardest to play right now and get absolutely nothing from it.
Also some people say black mage is the most difficult and therefore best damage. But black mage being difficult comes from older HW mentality when the timing on AF was hella strict. Now BLM really isnt that hard at all to understand. just like every class the nuances are there but compared to before it's much less punishing to play.

Tbh the difficulty these days between jobs are blurred on the majority,

Apart from the top 2 or 3, the difficulty levels for each job are no where near as far apart as players want to make out.

all the jobs bar summoner and ninja have become easy to play. People just don’t acknowledge that or want to acknowledge it atleast

[Lastelli]

Apart from the top 2 or 3, the difficulty levels for each job are no where near as far apart as players want to make out.

all the jobs bar summoner and ninja have become easy to play. People just don’t acknowledge that or want to acknowledge it atleast

^^^^ so much this.
Devs shouldn't balance around job difficulty. As long as a job is interesting and rewarding to play, people will play it.

When a job is hard, clunky and weak...well, then we have a problem (4.x MCH, 5.x NIN)

[IchiExorz]

Class difficulty should be there for preference. Some people enjoy playing easy classes & others enjoy difficult classes. Different classes also have differenty types of difficulty. (like SMN being difficult rotation wise & BLM being difficult mechanic & positioning wise.)

A class that is easy shouldn't be weaker than a class that is harder, but I don't think that's how SE is balancing RDM either way. If that was the case SMN would be the top DPS alongside BLM.

What's holding RDM dps back is our instant & "spammable" Resurrection ability, healing ability & Embolden. When looking at it this way RDM has a LOT of utility. But in fact 90% of the time Verraise & Vercure are VERY situational abilities to the point where they're almost pointless.

I think SE needs to make a distinct difference between DPS utility and non-DPS utility.
DPS utility should weigh down personal DPS more than non-DPS utility.
Reason being that DPS utility will ALWAYS be useful while non-DPS utility is very situational or becomes very situational very soon.

For example
When it comes to DPS utility RDM has about the same as MNK or DRG.
MNK has Mantra which is a non-DPS utility. Verraise might be a more impactful utility than Mantra & RDM has Vercure too so in my opinion RDM should be a bit below MNK when it comes to dps.

Same for MCH honestly. I think MCH should be on par with BLM DPS wise (a tiny bit lower probably.) because they don't offer any DPS utility.
I think the reason why MCH is so much lower than BLM is because SE is taking into account that they have Tactician, which is a non-DPS utility. But Tactician (albeit useful) isn't a necessary and is a situational ability. No one would take a MCH for that. So they need to carry their weight in personal DPS (or DPS utility.)

I think non-DPS utility SHOULD be taking into consideration when it comes to balancing personal DPS (hence why I think MCH should still be a bit below BLM) but it shouldn't be nearly as much as it is right now.

So please SE make a distinct difference between DPS utility and non-DPS utility and don't punish classes with non-DPS utility as much when it comes to their personal DPS. Buff RDM potencies!

[Kejara]

What's holding RDM dps back is our instant & "spammable" Resurrection ability, healing ability & Embolden. When looking at it this way RDM has a LOT of utility. But in fact 90% of the time Verraise & Vercure are VERY situational abilities to the point where they're almost pointless.

I think SE needs to make a distinct difference between DPS utility and non-DPS utility.
DPS utility should weigh down personal DPS more than non-DPS utility.
Reason being that DPS utility will ALWAYS be useful while non-DPS utility is very situational or becomes very situational very soon.

For example
When it comes to DPS utility RDM has about the same as MNK or DRG.
MNK has Mantra which is a non-DPS utility. Verraise might be a more impactful utility than Mantra & RDM has Vercure too so in my opinion RDM should be a bit below MNK when it comes to dps.

While I think the mixture of white magic/black magic that is the forte of the Red Mage is interesting and job defining, there is a problem when it comes to actual application in relevant content. The problem exists in basically all encounter designs. They aren't designing fights with hybrid or support classes in mind. A red mage should almost never be using vercure in current content and due to DPS checks in savage verraise provides little benefit. As long as they keep designing fights as DPS races that require high DPS up time from all involved, especially upon encounter release, there will not be a place for support/hybrid roles. If they intend to keep designing fights as they are, they need to omit verraise and vercure from the equation. It shouldn't even be considered when trying to determine where the red mage should be in the DPS hierarchy. Presently, there are only three factors that come to mind that should be use to calculate where red mages fall in the DPS hierarchy: 1. Ranged. Typically a small reduction in DPS for jobs being able to DPS from a distance. 2. Cast times. Typically a small increase in DPS to compensate for DPS loss due to movement rich encounters. 3. rDPS utility. Embolden. That is is all. A small DPS decrease for the rDPS utility brought. With those factors, in mind, it would put the RDM behind BLM along with SMN by what I would guess should be about 300-800 DPS.

I just wanted to provide one more interesting fact the shows just how bad the disparity is when RDM and BLM obtain their BiS gear from savage Eden. According to the relative damage calculators for both classes. A BLM with full BiS can do average theoretical DPS of approximately 16,500 DPS. A RDM with full BiS can do an average theoretical DPS of approximately 13,800. A difference of 2700 DPS!!!! This assumes no buffs and doesn't take party composition into account. This is broken beyond belief and nobody in their right mind would ever take a RDM over a BLM.

[Vallhallix]

Remember when people hyped how good Raise was as a utility and how busted RDM is for chain insta-raising, that some BLMs complained that they should have Raise too? Yeah, that aged like milk.

At this point I want Raise gone from RDM and SMN. It's nice to have but it's not worth keeping if they're going to keep both jobs doing mediocre damage because of it. It's so niche and finds little use after progression. Both of their party buffs are also pathetic.

The balancing for caster DPS is even worse now with BLM overshadowing the other two, and only because of Raise.

SMN has been up or down DPS-wise with every patch and in every single patch it had a raise, so raise has nothing to do with it, just an easy target to blame, more like incompotence handling the class because since the very start of the class they simply did not know what they wanted it to be. It simply should not have ever been packaged with SCH. And they spent every single patch trying different things with it. Raise is not at fault.

[IchiExorz]

Yeah exactly my point. Even though i'd understand they want to strip a tiny bit off our dps considering the non-DPS utilities.
In an optimal group they are completely useless & if someone dies & gets ressed it might not matter anyway due to dps checks & enrages. Maybe 1 can afford to die but thats it.
I don't think RDM should be much below SMN because of that and the only reason i'd say they should be below SMN is due to RDM being more free to move compared to SMN.

non-DPS utilities shouldn't weigh down DPS as much as DPS utility (if at all.)

[Remilia_Nightfall]

I agree. I understand RDM being lower than BLM, and maybe even SMN (albeit slightly), but at this point it is ridiculous. They even removed Mana Shift, so the utility is pretty much nil.

A simple overall buff in potency would fix the issue.

[Machi_Machiavelli]

RDM has never really been a powerhouse in FF. It is supposed to come with great utilities like REFRESH and enfeebling/arcane magic. Even in XI it didn't reach god status unless paired with a another job like nin. Doubt ffxiv will go the true subjob route, so they need to give it more reasons to carry along. I'd prefer it be given utilities that make it a must have in any sort of raid progression. I wouldn't having bottom of the barrel dps if I knew I'm going to be needed for my utility regardless.

[Wawachume]

I understand why raiders find verraise and vercure useless, but as a dungeon player I would really, really hate to lose them. I prevented at least two or three wipes just in the past few days with those spells. (And more importantly, preventing them was fun.)

Honestly, I don't see a problem with just boosting RDM damage (and/or group damage boosts) while leaving vercure/verraise as they are. If vercure and verraise are useless in raids, and the extra damage makes very little difference in dungeons, then it seems like there's no need to balance the two against each other. They're meant for different types of content.

I don't mind verraise being removed from dualcast, though.