RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[Miminming]

When a caster can only have a damage output same as range, is when the problem arise

[Drayos]

Overall I think personal dps should be
BLM=SAM > MCH > MNK = SMN > DRG > RDM = BRD > NIN = DNC

Rdps should look more like this
DNC > NIN = RDM > BRD > DRG > MNK = SMN > BLM = SAM = MCH*

*Add refresh as MP management back to Ranged and this will contribute to MCH rdps making it slightly more viable as a progression pure dps but it’s ranged benefits should restrict it in comparisons to BLM and SAM

I wouldnt say RDM is that high RDPS Wise, while Majority of its Utility kit is realistically around Supporting Progression. while it is true, u cant measure its Utility by DPS As alot of The reasons to bring a RDM is Basically its Instant rezz.but for as long as they keep RDM balanced with Verraise it'll remain Ditched Every time content moves past its Progression era which realistically isnt right. as it is a Job which has no sustained requirement for. imho its about time we removed Rezz off Dual Cast ability.

verraise is just so contreversal to actually how meaningful it is.

its a great tool in progression, Allowing players to see more mechanics, although its proven to be less useful this expansion due to such tight DPS Checks that your Realistically not going to manage the fight reguardless so u tend to Swap across to another caster even earlier then SB.

but its a Tool which u are Taxed upon meaning Ur Less Fulfilling in a actual DPS Role, thus meaning after ur disgarded theres no real need for your Job anymore. Sticking it in this Limbo of Being something almost built to not be mained and just merely a Answer to the "BLM CANT PROG meme" .

imho

Put Verraise on a 30 sec CD with 2 Charges.

it still cant be used in emergency, it'll function the same through DF reguardless and Allows u to insta Rezz Two players During a Raid, but with this we can Lift the Taxation as it'll no longer be as vital as currently which reduces the fear it becomes Mandatory during progression raiding.

From here Just Align RDM to fit a DPS ROle With Embolden. a Nice Mid pack DPS with Some Good RDPS Function through Embolden to raise it the Rest of the way.

[geekgirl101]

I wouldnt say RDM is that high RDPS Wise, while Majority of its Utility kit is realistically around Supporting Progression

We only got 2 utility spells for crying out loud and casting them affects our damage since they consume our dualcast. If you had a BLM and RDM side by side and they did the same damage but the RDM had to keep ressing people or self-healing you would still have the BLM doing more damage than the RDM. That's not to say I want RDM to be doing the same as a BLM but gee, this expansion is gonna make me quit if RDM isn't gonna get any love soon and I'm quite frankly tired of the arguments where people are quite happy to worship BLM and snort at every other DPS jobs.

[Dommy-Notatop]

Ranking class by where their aDPS and rDPS is rather difficult and IMO the best way to make class distinctions it through personal dps classes "buff receivers" and utility classes "buff givers". i think Buff givers would have to come out ahead in rDPS by a small but noticeable margin and buff receivers would have more aDPS by a rather noticeable amount. This of cause only applies if played well and is optimised (e.g. only with "buff recievers" recieveing the buff would the "Buff givers" come ahead in rDPS and would otherwise level out or be at a minor dps loss). there can also be the "intermediary classes" who's output is more middle of the road in both rDPS and aDPS as an alternative whlist providing more unique ways of buffing the party e.g. extra SS, Crit or DH (though balancing a SS buff sounds to me like a logistical nightmare).
(Im no theory crafter and if this is a bad idea please tell me why as i would like to know!)

EXAMPLES:
Buff recievers as they currently stand would include: BLM, SAM, MCH
Intermediary classes as they currently stand would include: DRG, MNK, BRD, and RDM* or SMN* (*either could also be buff givers they're so neck and neck right now i'd say they both currenty fall into this catagory)
Buff givers as they currently stand would include: DNC, NIN (*and possibly one of the magic classes rebalanced for this role)

But thats just what i'd like to see

[wereotter]

imho

Put Verraise on a 30 sec CD with 2 Charges.

it still cant be used in emergency, it'll function the same through DF reguardless and Allows u to insta Rezz Two players During a Raid, but with this we can Lift the Taxation as it'll no longer be as vital as currently which reduces the fear it becomes Mandatory during progression raiding.

I've seen this suggested a few times, and I gotta say, I don't see how this changes things at all.... if you're in a raid and you both had the need and mana to raise three or more people at once, then the fight was a loss anyway because of enrage. And if you were just called upon to raise one person because a healer has swiftcast on cool down, then a 30 second recast timer changes nothing.

If we want to look at it as a charged action with a cool down, then we'd have to look more to something like Hallowed Ground or Hyperbolide to determine the right length. 7 minutes cool down so that you go into the fight able to raise twice, maybe three times if someone dies early on.

[ForteNightshade]

Machinist can never pull Black Mage or current Monk numbers otherwise Melee DPS serve zero purpose. They're inherently at a disadvantage due to being the only DPS forced to entirely stop attacking based on range. While the solution is often janky uptime strats... why bother with those when you can simply run all range jobs and achieve the same overall damage without any drawbacks?

[ChameleonMS]

I know a raider who got into this wall, got her pretty hard in her selfsteem due to lack of communication of the party. She had a static, but due to circumstances now she has to resort to pugs to complete Ex and Savage. So far she has completed previous Savage succesfully, but due to this problem she could not even try a fight.

It goes along the lines of: "Kick this RDM", sometimes even witouth a word.

Feeling the same pain. I was a bench member of a static (cannot commit to the full schedule). Without warning, last night the static's PF changed to exclude RDM only. I immediately left the static's discord channel.

[SaberMaxwell]

Machinist can never pull Black Mage or current Monk numbers otherwise Melee DPS serve zero purpose. They're inherently at a disadvantage due to being the only DPS forced to entirely stop attacking based on range. While the solution is often janky uptime strats... why bother with those when you can simply run all range jobs and achieve the same overall damage without any drawbacks?

To play devil's advocate...

Stacking MCH (or anything more than two ranged) comes with a whole percent off of the total rDPS, which at 75k is substantial. There's a post right now theorizing you could double stack BLM over taking BLM+BRD and the loss means nothing; this is because of how much more damage BLM does than bard, but hypothetically if MCH and, say, SAM, did the same damage it wouldn't serve total rDPS well to just stack MCH over taking MCH+SAM. At most maybe you'd have people going 2r1m1c.

[AbyssDarks]

To play devil's advocate...

Stacking MCH (or anything more than two ranged) comes with a whole percent off of the total rDPS, which at 75k is substantial. There's a post right now theorizing you could double stack BLM over taking BLM+BRD and the loss means nothing; this is because of how much more damage BLM does than bard, but hypothetically if MCH and, say, SAM, did the same damage it wouldn't serve total rDPS well to just stack MCH over taking MCH+SAM. At most maybe you'd have people going 2r1m1c.

Ehh, on the flip side, thats only knocking your dps down to 74.25k. Realistically, unless your dying at 1% enrage, that 1% damage wont matter. Which I get is actually happening to some groups. But Im sure its MUCH more common that your dying at a much higher % or killing it with a much more comfy window.

Either way, wont hurt that much.

[Drayos]

We only got 2 utility spells for crying out loud and casting them affects our damage since they consume our dualcast. If you had a BLM and RDM side by side and they did the same damage but the RDM had to keep ressing people or self-healing you would still have the BLM doing more damage than the RDM. That's not to say I want RDM to be doing the same as a BLM but gee, this expansion is gonna make me quit if RDM isn't gonna get any love soon and I'm quite frankly tired of the arguments where people are quite happy to worship BLM and snort at every other DPS jobs.

My post wasn’t saying I was against buffing RDM i was saying I don’t think our Raid value is high enough to justify our numbers.

Sadly there’s no indication of their opinon on red mage, which means we don’t actually know what they intend with the job.

I am cautious however, as I am concerned we will fly under the radar due to them focusing on ninja summoner and samarui and we will end up delayed til a patch after 5.1 though