RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[Kokomi]

DPS jobs should be balanced based on whether they are ranged, melee, have cast bars, and group utility.

My order:
BLM/SAM/MCH=MNK=DRG/RDM=BRD=SMN/DNC=NIN

Please explain how being "ranged, melee, or having cast bars" should factor into job balance and why this is better than balancing based on difficulty.

Also, I'm curious why you're being so aggressive with someone who has a different opinion. Apparently I'm a "special snowflake" because I play ninja and I said it's a difficult class, then you said "Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm glad you don't balance MMOs as that would be a horrid way to balance a MMO" and you keep trying to dismiss my arguments as "cherry pick" or "straw man."

Edit: I read over my original post and I think I didn't say exactly what I meant. I think all classes should do enough DPS to be able to clear savage content, i.e. not be a liability for their team. This seems to be the case for RDM. However if RDM is easier to play than other classes then I see no reason that it should do the same amount of DPS.

[Kejara]

Please explain how being "ranged, melee, or having cast bars" should factor into job balance and why this is better than balancing based on difficulty.

They already factor into job balance in FFXIV. Physical ranged are penalized by a ranged tax and for having free mobility. Melee, excluding NIN who loses DPS for the utility brought, do more damage because they have to stay close to boss. BLM does more damage because it brings no utility and because of long casts (cast bars) is heavily punished by movement. Whether the methodology they currently employ is better than your alternative is a matter of opinion and one I care not to debate as our opinions clearly differ. However, at no time, to my recollection, did anybody say from SE say that a job will do less DPS because it's perceived to be less complex or difficult. This is something that was likely arbitrarily dreamed up by the community. Probably by people who seek validation because they presently play a perceived "difficult" class and an "easier" class shouldn't be able to pull of similar DPS numbers. I'll say this again though. Difficulty or complexity is subjective. Some people still hate RDM despite it being dubbed an "easy" class perhaps because they just don't like being rooted in place for any casts. RDM has received very little revision since inception. Did it ever occur to you that this supposed easy class doesn't receive many major changes because it might be the benchmark for all future class designs. It is my opinion that they believe they really nailed RDM. Anyway, something you find difficult may not be difficult to the next person. This extends outside of game and into real life. Some people are just better at performing certain kinds of tasks so what you find difficult they may find easy.

[Kokomi]

They already factor into job balance in FFXIV. Physical ranged are penalized by a ranged tax and for having free mobility. Melee, excluding NIN who loses DPS for the utility brought, do more damage because they have to stay close to boss. BLM does more damage because it brings no utility and because of long casts (cast bars) is heavily punished by movement.

What you're saying is "if it easier to attack and dodge, then the class should do less damage." This doesn't seem very far from balancing based on difficulty since uptime is something that can be optimized.

[Kejara]

Please explain how being "ranged, melee, or having cast bars" should factor into job balance and why this is better than balancing based on difficulty.

Also, I'm curious why you're being so aggressive with someone who has a different opinion. Apparently I'm a "special snowflake" because I play ninja and I said it's a difficult class, then you said "Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm glad you don't balance MMOs as that would be a horrid way to balance a MMO" and you keep trying to dismiss my arguments as "cherry pick" or "straw man."

Edit: I read over my original post and I think I didn't say exactly what I meant. I think all classes should do enough DPS to be able to clear savage content, i.e. not be a liability for their team. This seems to be the case for RDM. However if RDM is easier to play than other classes then I see no reason that it should do the same amount of DPS.

I'm not trying to be aggressive. I do respect your opinion. However, when arguing your point, you selected data only that would bolster your stance and omitted data that would not. AKA cherry picking. Then you misrepresented what myself and others are saying by employing a hyperbolic and perhaps rhetorical question in an attempt to change the argument into one you thought that would be easier to defeat. AKA straw man.

e.g., Party 1: "I think RDM is under performing and should be buffed." Party 2: "So you would make all DPS equal?"

I don't mean to offend you and I am not out to get you. This isn't personal. Just a civil argument.

[Wayfinder3]

What you're saying is "if it easier to attack and dodge, then the class should do less damage." This doesn't seem very far from balancing based on difficulty since uptime is something that can be optimized.

She's saying that Samurai and Black Mage have to interact with mechanics more so than Machinist and as a result, they should do more damage as they have to try harder by that metric. Technically this is also true of Red Mage as RDM has to interact with mechanics differently as a Melee DPS or a Caster but it taxes the DPS it should be given by having access to Verraise and Embolden. Black Mage is only justfiably stronger than RDM because of it's utility, both have very high levels of optimization when it comes to fight design. The community has just been fed a myth that BLMs have to be super good to do mechanics and keep dps and RDM aren't trying nearly as hard to do the same thing. They're really even in difficulty or close enough that it's subjective but for different reasons.

[Seabhacgra]

When it comes right down to it,.. just the RDM's a little love, not much, just a little and we'll be happy lol

[Drayos]

Please explain how being "ranged, melee, or having cast bars" should factor into job balance and why this is better than balancing based on difficulty.

Also, I'm curious why you're being so aggressive with someone who has a different opinion. Apparently I'm a "special snowflake" because I play ninja and I said it's a difficult class, then you said "Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm glad you don't balance MMOs as that would be a horrid way to balance a MMO" and you keep trying to dismiss my arguments as "cherry pick" or "straw man."

Edit: I read over my original post and I think I didn't say exactly what I meant. I think all classes should do enough DPS to be able to clear savage content, i.e. not be a liability for their team. This seems to be the case for RDM. However if RDM is easier to play than other classes then I see no reason that it should do the same amount of DPS.

Here’s why.

Balancing on difficulty will imbalance the game.

People are capable of different things, and not everyone in RL is capable of playing ninja at its maximum potiental in the hardest content

It’s a fecking game. Job difficulty isn’t there to be a balancing factor it’s there to be enjoyed, u aren’t entitled to benefit meta wise for doing it.

People’s ability to play a game lowers with age and more. A balancing method like this would basically force players out the game.

There’s no reason to punish a player for a simplistic job, and creating a world where we all stack the hardest job in the game would lead to a very disfunctional one.

We want diversity between jobs, not to all stack

You give everyone a number one. And seriously 90% of the damn game will main it. U will kill the game with this concept

[BarretOblivion]

She's saying that Samurai and Black Mage have to interact with mechanics more so than Machinist and as a result, they should do more damage as they have to try harder by that metric. Technically this is also true of Red Mage as RDM has to interact with mechanics differently as a Melee DPS or a Caster but it taxes the DPS it should be given by having access to Verraise and Embolden. Black Mage is only justfiably stronger than RDM because of it's utility, both have very high levels of optimization when it comes to fight design. The community has just been fed a myth that BLMs have to be super good to do mechanics and keep dps and RDM aren't trying nearly as hard to do the same thing. They're really even in difficulty or close enough that it's subjective but for different reasons.

Yeah but MCH is actually different in its rotation than BLM/SAM. its a priority system rotation that you have to time with perfection to get high damage. Most would argue MCH is a much harder job to play than BLM or SAM from a rotation standpoint.

[Wayfinder3]

Yeah but MCH is actually different in its rotation than BLM/SAM. its a priority system rotation that you have to time with perfection to get high damage. Most would argue MCH is a much harder job to play than BLM or SAM from a rotation standpoint.

BLM is touted as the most difficult job to play at a high level do to it's positioning and while many players are challenging that claim, players are also learning accept that RDM and SMN are just as complex in their rotations in high level encounters because they have worse mobility than BLM. MCH rotation requiring a "bit" more attention is fine considering it can do that rotation with the least amount of outside variables to consider, there is no planning triplecast, swiftcast, and true north for MCH. they have arms length and don't actually need to use it at all this tier and their damage is completely ignorant of fight mechanics aside from boss transitions that all other jobs have to deal with.

So... Yeah, BLM and SAM should be stronger than it, and the only reason RDM and SMN shouldn't be is that they have more utility to contribute to a raid than MCH does.

[Drayos]

Yeah but MCH is actually different in its rotation than BLM/SAM. its a priority system rotation that you have to time with perfection to get high damage. Most would argue MCH is a much harder job to play than BLM or SAM from a rotation standpoint.

I don’t know about this, most say MCH is very easy to play, it’s not exactly rocket science anymore.

I’d consider SAM rotationally harder and BLM mechanically harder then MCH