RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

[Drayos]

10 second cooldown, no stacks.

Oh got that abit wrong then haha, always thought it had three, maybe my memory for some reason combined triple cast and teleport haha

[RiotSiren]

Honestly I feel like RDM is in a fine place atm, it's more the perception of it that is flawed. Looking at the statistics from FFlogs, it is currently one of the lowest DPS class in the game, however its still competitive with other DPS. From my perspective it is less RDM is very weak and more BLM/MNK/DRG are exceptionally strong. On average it seems within about 200 rDPS then other classes which is trivial in most cases. On top of that in 95% of content RDM utility DOES have value, for example my current static just completed a E3s with 5 deaths (3 DPS) largely due to the RDM being able to raise so the healers didn't bottom out their manna. Because of the RDM we now have a second clear and a few of us have a very embarrassing parse.

Like I said I feel like at the end of the day this seems more like a PF being dumb issue and less a RDM being bad thing. People just hear "RDM is bad and does low DPS" and they don't understand why, where, or to what the extent. Its one of those cases of unless you are going for the world record speed clear RDM in its current state is fine. You can clear anything with just about any valid comp atm, if you are hitting enrage you have bigger problems then your class make up.

[kajv95]

Honestly I feel like RDM is in a fine place atm, it's more the perception of it that is flawed. Looking at the statistics from FFlogs, it is currently one of the lowest DPS class in the game, however its still competitive with other DPS. From my perspective it is less RDM is very weak and more BLM/MNK/DRG are exceptionally strong. On average it seems within about 200 rDPS then other classes which is trivial in most cases. On top of that in 95% of content RDM utility DOES have value, for example my current static just completed a E3s with 5 deaths (3 DPS) largely due to the RDM being able to raise so the healers didn't bottom out their manna. Because of the RDM we now have a second clear and a few of us have a very embarrassing parse.

Like I said I feel like at the end of the day this seems more like a PF being dumb issue and less a RDM being bad thing. People just hear "RDM is bad and does low DPS" and they don't understand why, where, or to what the extent. Its one of those cases of unless you are going for the world record speed clear RDM in its current state is fine. You can clear anything with just about any valid comp atm, if you are hitting enrage you have bigger problems then your class make up.

I'd say the problem here is that there *is* an obvious easier way out, and people confident in their weekly clears pugging simply have no reason to bring an RDM along at all. You're arguing that RDM is great for prog. Yeah, that's great and true! But nobody was arguing that it wasn't. Personally, I'm arguing for *all* rDPS to go closer to the current top 4 since nerfing the top 4 would cause even more issues for dancers and ninjas. In this equation, RDM would still be the weakest as by the nature of the job, but it shouldn't be this weak.

If not buffed in the traditional sense, there has to be a trade-off for not having to use your raise/cure and gives RDM a small boost that helps it flourish a little more outside of progging. Would give it a small layer of additional depth as well.

[RiotSiren]

I'd say the problem here is that there *is* an obvious easier way out, and people confident in their weekly clears pugging simply have no reason to bring an RDM along at all. You're arguing that RDM is great for prog. Yeah, that's great and true! But nobody was arguing that it wasn't. Personally, I'm arguing for *all* rDPS to go closer to the current top 4 since nerfing the top 4 would cause even more issues for dancers and ninjas. In this equation, RDM would still be the weakest as by the nature of the job, but it shouldn't be this weak.

If not buffed in the traditional sense, there has to be a trade-off for not having to use your raise/cure and gives RDM a small boost that helps it flourish a little more outside of progging. Would give it a small layer of additional depth as well.

I'm more arguing that RDM is already fine in all scenarios on top of being good for prog. Don't get me wrong I feel like all classes should be around the same level in terms of rDPS. BLM/MNK/DRG are over tuned atm and should honesty be brought down a bit and everyone else brought up a bit. I'm not saying RDM couldn't use some love, more that its not nearly as bad as people make it out to be and people excluding them from PF should really rethink their stance, especially this early in the raid tier.

The way I see it, it's a DPS that provides decent party DPS support, and the ability to help out should things go sideways. On top of that it has good mobility, is ranged, and is fairly easy to play, its spot near the bottom of the rDPS chart is warranted. If not RDM then who else should be below them with the current way classes are done. Someone has to be at the bottom and RDM has a good excuse to be there. I don't think it should be there by alot mind you but... well it isn't currently(Dancer is actually lower). Like I said someone has to be at the bottom and RDM gives a group a nice parachute that other classes cant provide to the same extent.

Not everything is a speed clear and if you are, most likely are gonna only going to go for the top half of the DPS anyways, though I don't think RDM would really slow you down at all in its current state if played well.

[Dommy-Notatop]

I don't think RDM would really slow you down at all in its current state if played well.

I agree with you on all other points. BUT RDM is being slowed down from clears, however its the community's perception of them and the meta thats putting on the brakes. (As i stated in the original post this applies for PF pugs only)
I would like SE to make them feel valued for their DPS and dps utility rather than just raise.
Raise in itself is a big point of contention in the caster community now. Yoshi-P said in the last live letter that BLM does so much damage because it doesnt have access to raise. Casters dont want to do less damage because they can raise, ive seen a lot of people calling for its nerf or full on removal from Magic DPS for this reason. (And despite my love for raise in easier content im inclined to agree with them.)

[RiotSiren]

I agree with you on all other points. BUT RDM is being slowed down from clears, however its the community's perception of them and the meta thats putting on the brakes. (As i stated in the original post this applies for PF pugs only)
I would like SE to make them feel valued for their DPS and dps utility rather than just raise.
Raise in itself is a big point of contention in the caster community now. Yoshi-P said in the last live letter that BLM does so much damage because it doesnt have access to raise. Casters dont want to do less damage because they can raise, ive seen a lot of people calling for its nerf or full on removal from Magic DPS for this reason. (And despite my love for raise in easier content im inclined to agree with them.)

While I can get not wanting the res at the cost of DPS, I don't see it going away and I wouldn't want to see it go away. While yes it puts RDM on the lower end of the DPS spectrum, RDM still brings more then enough DPS to clear anything. I know we are only talking savage here for the most part, but we do have to take a step back and remember a majority of the playerbase never takes part in that. In a casual PUG RDM raise and cure is amazing. Taking their support away from them there will anger a huge amount of players who play the class for that very reason, I don't see it happening.On the other hand if you made RDM do as good rDPS as BLM it would be taken over it due to its back up support. I get that its frustrating that if its not used it adds nothing but it still exist and it does have use.

Like I said though I'm all for them closing the gap a bit between the current top rDPS and those under them but if you remove the outliers things actually look fairly balanced.

[Kejara]

Honestly I feel like RDM is in a fine place atm, it's more the perception of it that is flawed. Looking at the statistics from FFlogs, it is currently one of the lowest DPS class in the game, however its still competitive with other DPS. From my perspective it is less RDM is very weak and more BLM/MNK/DRG are exceptionally strong.

You are effectively saying the same thing as everybody else here but you are just looking at it from a half-empty perspective. However you phrase it, the disparity remains and it's large. Did you know there is almost a 3000 DPS difference between BLM and RDM in full BiS? You can say that BLM is really strong or that RDM is very weak and it means the same thing mathematically when we compare the two. Nobody wants to see nerfs. We'd like to see RDM brought up a bit. Obviously not to BLM levels but it certainly could use a bit of love in pDPS and/or rDPS.

May I ask you what your static composition, as far as DPS is concerned, is? This is a factor. For instance, any composition not containing at least one meta DPS (BLM/MNK/DRG) is at a huge disadvantage. My static has a RDM/SAM/BRD/DNC so its much more difficult to recover from a death because you don't have the excess DPS from a strong meta DPS or two to allow for recovery. In your parse on E3S, your group managed to have 73k DPS, while having 3 DPS deaths. There is no way that was done if there weren't some meta DPSrs in there carrying the group. In a non-meta composition, mine for instance, if one DPS dies, there's a good chance you aren't clearing. The point is, yeah sure, a RDM can clear while being carried by meta DPS but any composition of DPS jobs should be viable. With deaths and a non-meta composition its just not likely if the group is still around ~i450.

[RiotSiren]

You are effectively saying the same thing as everybody else here but you are just looking at it from a half-empty perspective. However you phrase it, the disparity remains and it's large. Did you know there is almost a 3000 DPS difference between BLM and RDM in full BiS? You can say that BLM is really strong or that RDM is very weak and it means the same thing mathematically when we compare the two. Nobody wants to see nerfs. We'd like to see RDM brought up a bit. Obviously not to BLM levels but it certainly could use a bit of love in pDPS and/or rDPS.

May I ask you what your static composition, as far as DPS is concerned, is? This is a factor. For instance, any composition not containing at least one meta DPS (BLM/MNK/DRG) is at a huge disadvantage. My static has a RDM/SAM/BRD/DNC so its much more difficult to recover from a death because you don't have the excess DPS from a strong meta DPS or two to allow for recovery. In your parse on E3S, your group managed to have 73k DPS, while having 3 DPS deaths. There is no way that was done if there weren't some meta DPSrs in there carrying the group. In a non-meta composition, mine for instance, if one DPS dies, there's a good chance you aren't clearing. The point is, yeah sure, a RDM can clear while being carried by meta DPS but any composition of DPS jobs should be viable. With deaths and a non-meta composition its just not likely if the group is still around ~i450.

MNK/DRG/BRD/RDM
In the particular fight I brought up the MNK died Twice and the DRG died once so their damage was fairly poor. I'm aware we really should not have made that clear.

Don't get me wrong I'm aware that MNK/BLM/DRG are pretty silly right now, and if you look at top rDPS BLM is about 2k higher then RDM at MAX.
However its also 2k Higher then BRD/MCH/DNC/NIN and 1.5k ahead of SMN. That's less a issue of RDM under-preforming and more a issue of BLM/MNK/DRG over-preforming is what I'm mainly getting at. RDM is fairly in line with most of DPS that no one currently is having issues with.

Edit: Removed a bit about RDM beating MCH in that fight, I was looking at MAX over Eden as a whole

[Kejara]

MNK/DRG/BRD/RDM
In the particular fight I brought up the MNK died Twice and the DRG died once so their damage was fairly poor. I'm aware we really should not have made that clear.

Don't get me wrong I'm aware that MNK/BLM/DRG are pretty silly right now, and if you look at top rDPS BLM is about 2k higher then RDM at MAX.
However its also 2k Higher then BRD/MCH/DNC/NIN and 1.5k ahead of SMN. That's less a issue of RDM under-preforming and more a issue of BLM/MNK/DRG over-preforming is what I'm mainly getting at. RDM is fairly in line with most of DPS that no one currently is having issues with.

Edit: Removed a bit about RDM beating MCH in that fight, I was looking at MAX over Eden as a whole

Of those you mentioned, NIN and SMN are getting a re-work and likely DPS improvements (5.08, 5.1) . BRD/DNC/MCH could stand to be brought up as well. You see, this isn't just about RDM being weak, which in my opinion is true, its about how much weaker than the "Big Three" all of the jobs are. However, this is a red mage thread and there is another thread discussing the disparity between MNK/BLM/DRG and the other jobs. I can't speak for everybody else but I want to make sure that when buffs, alterations, and/or refinements are handed out that RDM isn't left out. We received very little changes for Shadowbringers and one of the abilities is basically a junk dps-negative movement spell.

[Deifact]

If RDM support is holding back it's DPS, maybe there needs to be a mechanic to discourage it's use over time. Perhaps a stacking buff, one stack given every 30 seconds to a max of three, where Verraise can only be cast at the cost of all three stacks, Vercure costs one? That way there is still utility available to RDM but it's limited, and DPS can be improved to compensate.

Either that or improve the utility and keep DPS low. I always thought there should be incentive for aligning to White or Black magic. Maybe at 100 white mana your melee combo gives a small AoE heal for each enchanted ability, 100 black mana gives a small AoE MP restore? Or a small aoe shield or something (Phalanx effect?)