Disrespectful and Dismissive.

[Wawachume]

Let me put it this way. The existence of Bane, Miasma, Shadowflare today would preclude the existence of anything better than that in the future.

Then they really should have put the better stuff in. I'm getting tired of MMORPG developers telling me they've deleted my spells to make room for other stuff they haven't bothered to come up with yet. :/

[LariaKirin]

I do not see how this is the case. Would you elaborate on why you think this is true?

Because SE has quite obviously stated through action that healers will not get many DPS buttons. So if we do get any DPS actions, I think we all want them to be more interesting than Miasma or Shadowflare. Ideally, involving the fairy gauge.

We're all so happy that Energy Drain is back because it's an actual decision you can make that has consequences. In my view, if you want rotation based gameplay you play DPS. If you want decision based gameplay, you play healer. I'm just dreaming at this point.

Then they really should have put the better stuff in. I'm getting tired of MMORPG developers telling me they've deleted my spells to make room for other stuff they haven't bothered to come up with yet. :/

They did not tell you that. I did not tell you that.

[Billythepancake]

Arcanist Relics:
The gimmick of tracking two dots is trivially more difficult than tracking one. By the time having to maintain 2 dots became relevant, you've already internalized the process. Making Miasma an occasional Broil replacer. Let's not pretend it was difficult or interesting.
Shadowflare was a maintenance button you would use on CD in 99% of cases. The supposed tradeoff with Soil is barely relevant, because it would rarely come up and because Soil was generally too garbage to use outside of Ultimates. Not because it was good, but because you would run out of mitigation. The only situation in which I would want Shadowflare back is if it has an actual tradeoff - like sharing cooldown with Soil.
Miasma II was an AoE skill better at weaving than our dedicated weaving tool. Which was also bad at fulfilling its purpose as an AoE tool. Plain and simple bad design.
Bane was an obligatory maintenance button you would press when doing boring routine content. Bane into Miasma II spam did nothing to make my 40th run of Ghimlyt Dark interesting. All it did was make me question why I queued for dungeons with SCH instead of WHM.

Fairy:
The fairy not sharing GCDs or OGCDs was nice and borderline OP, but do not pretend it required any multitasking. The only thought you had was "I want to use this skill". Then you would press the button with little regard for anything else. At least now you have to create a weave slot for it. Imagine having to think before mashing your fairy buttons. Btw, fairy placement is still a thing.

What you can't do now is manual Embrace, which was just a gimmick for activating Veil.

MP and Aetherflow
MP is actually a responsibility now. Fail Lucid Dreaming and you don't have someone else to bail you out.
Aetherflow is still a resource you manage. Enhanced Aetherflow was a nice interaction - maybe we'll get it back if we ask hard enough. That is, if it doesn't get lost in between requests for the SB button bloat which is not coming back and should not come back.

The core gameplay of Scholar has hardly changed because we got back what was at the heart of it - Energy Drain.

You can list the uses for these skills all you want. I already know about them and I don't want them back. The fact is that they were an utter mess of badly designed abilities that would be a nightmare to balance and would kill any hope for SCH to get anything meaningful in the future.

So, friend, move on from outdated button bloat and ask for more meaningful fairy gauge and Aetherflow interactions.

Fairy placement is still a thing, and it didn't require multitasking? it was the literal definition of multitasking, because you were doing 2 things at once. "borderline op" maybe, but after they nerfed all of her healing super hard, it's more a case of "oh right, I do have these fairy abilities now, guess I can use them" rather than "oh, these will make an impact, let me try to do this while I'm casting" If they removed my abilities to give me something better, then they NEED TO GIVE ME SOMETHING BETTER. Spamming Misamsa II was bad, but you will NEVER convince me that AoE is better now. AoE now: AoW ->AoW -> AoW -> AoW -> you get it. It used to be dot management with miasma and bio and bane and shadow flare was mitigation because of the slow, and then miasma II to finish it off. MP is so much easier now BECAUSE they got rid of miasma II, as long as you aren't spamming heals or constantly getting rezzes, your MP is fine. Lucid hardly counts for anything, because riding it is the same as it has always been.

Yeah, any dungeon you're running on any class will be boring your 40th time through, what of it? Why was I so bored in all the new sparkly level 80 dungeons? Because I was sitting there spamming 1 button, and had no resources to manage, nothing to watch for, just spamming art of war.

Ruin II is better at weaving now than it was, sure, but it doesn't have that same risk miasma II had, it doesn't have the same payoff, so it doesn't feel as good when you use it. Miasma II you had to get close, and you risked the MP, ruin II is just "weave in 2 spells for free and lost a bit of potency"

[LariaKirin]

Fairy placement is still a thing, and it didn't require multitasking? it was the literal definition of multitasking, because you were doing 2 things at once. "borderline op" maybe, but after they nerfed all of her healing super hard, it's more a case of "oh right, I do have these fairy abilities now, guess I can use them" rather than "oh, these will make an impact, let me try to do this while I'm casting" If they removed my abilities to give me something better, then they NEED TO GIVE ME SOMETHING BETTER. Spamming Misamsa II was bad, but you will NEVER convince me that AoE is better now. AoE now: AoW ->AoW -> AoW -> AoW -> you get it. It used to be dot management with miasma and bio and bane and shadow flare was mitigation because of the slow, and then miasma II to finish it off. MP is so much easier now BECAUSE they got rid of miasma II, as long as you aren't spamming heals or constantly getting rezzes, your MP is fine. Lucid hardly counts for anything, because riding it is the same as it has always been.

Yeah, any dungeon you're running on any class will be boring your 40th time through, what of it? Why was I so bored in all the new sparkly level 80 dungeons? Because I was sitting there spamming 1 button, and had no resources to manage, nothing to watch for, just spamming art of war.

Fairy placement required multitasking. Using fairy abilities did not. If you think pressing Whispering Dawn required multitasking, then explain how.

Spamming AoW is better than spamming Miasma II because you don't feel bad about overwriting your dot.

MP is harder now because misuse of Lucid Dreaming is significantly more punishing. However, MP is and has always been a non-issue if you used your MP regen tools properly.

I mentioned the 40th run of the dungeon because you somehow seem convinced that spamming Miasma II rather than AoW would make it any different. Running these is a boring chore on even the busiest of DPS jobs. Nothing saves boring content.

[Billythepancake]

Fairy placement required multitasking. Using fairy abilities did not. If you think pressing Whispering Dawn required multitasking, then explain how.

Spamming AoW is better than spamming Miasma II because you don't feel bad about overwriting your dot.

MP is harder now because misuse of Lucid Dreaming is significantly more punishing. However, MP is and has always been a non-issue if you used your MP regen tools properly.

I mentioned the 40th run of the dungeon because you somehow seem convinced that spamming Miasma II rather than AoW would make it any different. Running these is a boring chore on even the busiest of DPS jobs. Nothing saves boring content.

It requires multi tasking in the same vein that placement requires multitasking, yes, pressing the button isn't as hard as placing fairy, that much I can agree on, but remembering to do it while casting was still multi tasking.

And sure, I can agree constantly overwriting a dot on miasma II didn't feel good, and had they given me AoW on top of miasma II, while making the direct hit on miasma II weaker and upping the potency of the buff, I'd be 100% okay with AoW, because that's more to do in AoE, which is a good thing, but out right replacing it is terrible. I can't stand AoW because in single target situations, it may as well not even be on my hotbar, Miasma II had uses no matter the situation or content you were in, making it the better spell.

I don't know how MP is harder for you, but it's the same to me, use lucid when your MP is about 60-70%, then you pretty much just use it on CD. It's a management button, which I'm fine with, but that's the exact issues you brought up with shadowflare, so if it's okay for lucid, why is it a problem for my DPS abilities.

Yes, you can argue that Miasma, shadow flare, bane, quickened aetherflow, fairy abilities off of GCDs and oGCDs, miasma II,being able to use aetherflow out of combat, and having 2 distinct fairies with their own movesets, were all small things, but all those small things add up. It's like a 5 dollar bill, sure, losing 1 5 dollar bill isn't a big deal, but you lose ten 5 dollar bills? Suddenly that's a lot of money down the drain. It especially hurts me in savage content not having all these things, because I loved having all this to juggle on top of everything else to do, because I felt like I could always improve. on final omega, with all the healing I had to do on Hello World, it wasn't uncommon for me to drop miasma, and it sucked when I noticed, BUT, it made me want to get better, because I had to tell myself "you HAVE to remember to watch for this", same with fairy abilities, for shadow flare, for everything else I just listed, it all adds up, I could've lived if they removed 1 of those things, maybe 2, but all those at once? that's too much. Yes, I'm glad to have ED back, but that wasn't all the 5 dollar bills SE took from me.

[LariaKirin]

It requires multi tasking in the same vein that placement requires multitasking, yes, pressing the button isn't as hard as placing fairy, that much I can agree on, but remembering to do it while casting was still multi tasking.

What are you talking about? You are really reaching for this multitasking argument. What happens is that you decide to use Whispering Dawn. Before, you'd press the button whenever. Now you have to find or create a weave slot. It is no longer borderline OP and requires significantly more thought on your part.

I don't know how MP is harder for you, but it's the same to me, use lucid when your MP is about 60-70%, then you pretty much just use it on CD. It's a management button, which I'm fine with, but that's the exact issues you brought up with shadowflare, so if it's okay for lucid, why is it a problem for my DPS abilities.

MP is harder now because misuse of Lucid Dreaming is significantly more punishing. However, MP is and has always been a non-issue if you used your MP regen tools properly.

Yes, you can argue that Miasma, shadow flare, bane, quickened aetherflow, fairy abilities off of GCDs and oGCDs, miasma II,being able to use aetherflow out of combat, and having 2 distinct fairies with their own movesets, were all small things, but all those small things add up. It's like a 5 dollar bill, sure, losing 1 5 dollar bill isn't a big deal, but you lose ten 5 dollar bills? Suddenly that's a lot of money down the drain. It especially hurts me in savage content not having all these things, because I loved having all this to juggle on top of everything else to do, because I felt like I could always improve. on final omega, with all the healing I had to do on Hello World, it wasn't uncommon for me to drop miasma, and it sucked when I noticed, BUT, it made me want to get better, because I had to tell myself "you HAVE to remember to watch for this", same with fairy abilities, for shadow flare, for everything else I just listed, it all adds up, I could've lived if they removed 1 of those things, maybe 2, but all those at once? that's too much. Yes, I'm glad to have ED back, but that wasn't all the 5 dollar bills SE took from me.

Nice straw-man you have there.

[Billythepancake]

What are you talking about? You are really reaching for this multitasking argument. What happens is that you decide to use Whispering Dawn. Before, you'd press the button whenever. Now you have to find or create a weave slot. It is no longer borderline OP and requires significantly more thought on your part.



MP is harder now because misuse of Lucid Dreaming is significantly more punishing. However, MP is and has always been a non-issue if you used your MP regen tools properly.



Nice straw-man you have there.

How is it more punishing if it's on half of the CD is used to be, if anything it is less punishing because you're not waiting on it nearly as long, even if it regens less, the potency on it was changed by what, 20? Doesn't regen all that much less, again, it's nothing more than, as you put it, a management button, but it seems it's okay for lucid, but not for anything else.

My argument is far from strawman, if the comparison was what made it that way, fine, I'll explain it another way. More to do and more to manage was more interesting, because you were much more likely to forget something, and therefore, would always have room for improvement. Even if those things you forgot were just "management buttons", it was still something to manage and something to watch for, having that on top of mechanics and HP bars is why it felt like there was always room to do better, and why I found things fun. Removing too much of that management has made things much more boring, and in fights that I'm currently progging, outside of mechanics, I do not feel as if I can improve all that much, because there is nothing for me to improve on outside of the fight itself in my kit. When my first clear on a fight was an orange, that got taxed down to a purple, but barely that, that is telling me, even if this is just the beginning of an expansion, that I'm already too close to the ceiling, because I did not have enough to manage. I don't know about you, but I never want to hit a static cap where I don't feel like I can't get any better at the game.


And if the using the ability wasn't multi-tasking to you, despite everyone else agreeing it was, because it is quite literally doing 2 things at once, then so be it. I will still argue that casting 2 abilities at once is, by definition, multi-tasking, and was more interesting and more satisfying to do than having to use ruin II to weave in fairy abilities. Not even to mention the amount of times I want her to use both abilities now, with her straight up bugging out and putting one of them on CD without actually using the ability. That never seemed to happen with the old system, but then I suppose fairy actually using her abilities was OP.

[Shurrikhan]

Spamming AoW is better than spamming Miasma II because you don't feel bad about overwriting your dot.

Spamming, yes. But the whole point of Miasma II was that it made it far more often optimal to do other things between the AoE hits, like readying Bane or your healing.

And what newly punishing "misuse" are we talking about for Lucid Dreaming? It's still used on cooldown. You're just punished for with mana starvation for at most 59 seconds instead of 119, generate 60 potency of Refresh per minute instead of 40 (80 per 2 minutes), and you have a further action per minute. That's it. Only one part of that could possibly be punishment, and it's absolutely insignificant.

[LariaKirin]

How is it more punishing if it's on half of the CD is used to be, if anything it is less punishing because you're not waiting on it nearly as long, even if it regens less, the potency on it was changed by what, 20? Doesn't regen all that much less, again, it's nothing more than, as you put it, a management button, but it seems it's okay for lucid, but not for anything else.

The reason it is more punishing is because it is purely a personal responsibility now. If you do not use it correctly, there are no bailouts in the form of Mana Shift and Refresh coming your way.

It is a management button. Literally a MP management button. I see what you're trying to do, but I'm just gonna ask directly. What's your point?

My argument is far from strawman

It's because you're lumping everything together and you're telling me what I'm arguing about things neither of us have even brought up before. I said literally nothing about two distinct fairies. I said it would be nice to have back Enhanced Aetherflow. It feels like you're not even paying attention to my posts.

So let me just ask you this... From what I said so far, what do you think my problem is with these DPS skills (Miasma, Miasma II, Shadowflare, Bane)? Why do you think I do not want them back?

And if the using the ability wasn't multi-tasking to you, despite everyone else agreeing it was, because it is quite literally doing 2 things at once, then so be it. I will still argue that casting 2 abilities at once is, by definition, multi-tasking, and was more interesting and more satisfying to do than having to use ruin II to weave in fairy abilities. Not even to mention the amount of times I want her to use both abilities now, with her straight up bugging out and putting one of them on CD without actually using the ability. That never seemed to happen with the old system, but then I suppose fairy actually using her abilities was OP.

Fine, I'll call it multitasking if you're so attached to that term, it makes no difference to me. My point about this is that the way fairy skills worked before was OP, that it's healthy for balance and that now they require more thought to use on your part.

[Billythepancake]

The reason it is more punishing is because it is purely a personal responsibility now. If you do not use it correctly, there are no bailouts in the form of Mana Shift and Refresh coming your way.

It is a management button. Literally a MP management button. I see what you're trying to do, but I'm just gonna ask directly. What's your point?



It's because you're lumping everything together and you're telling me what I'm arguing about things neither of us have even brought up before. I said literally nothing about two distinct fairies. I said it would be nice to have back Enhanced Aetherflow. It feels like you're not even paying attention to my posts.

So let me just ask you this... From what I said so far, what do you think my problem is with these DPS skills (Miasma, Miasma II, Shadowflare, Bane)? Why do you think I do not want them back?



Fine, I'll call it multitasking if you're so attached to that term, it makes no difference to me. My point about this is that the way fairy skills worked before was OP, that it's healthy for balance and that now they require more thought to use on your part.

It's more of a personal management thing, yes, but lucid has been made so strong, just use it every 60 seconds and that's it, you dont need to be babied on others for mana anymore because of that change, if anything it has become easier, because now you dont need a BRD just for the refresh, you dont need a mage just for the mana shift, you arent screwed without them, and you arent dependent on them, making it much easier and more forgiving, because even if you screw up, its not on nearly as long of a CD. If you died right after using lucid in SB, manashift only got you so far and you had 2 minutes until lucid was up, now you have 60 seconds.

Why you dont want those abilities, I couldn't tell you, because the only one you have put any justification I could possibly understand is miasma II, because it did genuinely not make sense for a dot to be your only AoE option, which is why I say AoW wouldve been a great compliment to it, but not a good replacement. The other ones though? You dumb them down to their simplest possible explanation "it's a button you press every x seconds" you can make anything sound insignificant if you dumb it down that far.

And I hardly agree they were OP because the abilities themselves were not OP, especially now after fairy got nerfed to high heaven. Even if it was OP not having them ties to the GCD or oGCD, it doesnt change it *felt* so much better to use, even if, as you put it, it didnt require much thinking (which I will disagree with, but you have every right to your opinion) because SCH has so many oGCD abilities, it was so relieving to have SOMETHING I didnt have to weave in, to have something I could just do. Having them be oGCD does not require more thinking, it just makes it more annoying because now I have to sacrifice a broil for it and use a ruin II.