MMORPGs How they have changed for the better? or worse?

[Zabuza]

And yet you are here posting, at the forum of a ultra casual friendly game, this is pretty ironic.
Old mmorpgs, i do not miss them even a bit, they were punishing and stressful, and sorry to break your world but it was not good for young minds at all, the mmorpg i played in my young years were causing a ton of stress and kids were fighting in real life because of that game. There were several cases in my country of kids attacking their own parents because they interupted them in playing one of the "old style" mmorpg.
It was bad, often pay2win and was forcing youths to hardcore playing to keep competitve, often playing and ignoring school, not passing from class to class because of the game.
I was raised in those times, i experienced bad sides of online gaming, it made its terrible damage to our society, and you cannot denny this fact.
They were new, addicting and was hard to distiguish real life from online game for kids who played them, i knew in first person a boy who tried commit suicide because he has been hacked in Tibia.
These old games were like drugs given away for free, terribly designed and made to lure in you to spend all your time in them.

Yeah, I'm only here because of Savage and perhaps Ultimate when it drops. Those who have seen me in the 'Lack of End Game Content' thread know this. I don't do casual stuff on here. I am greatly saddened by what this genre has become to be honest.

As to your other point, it is not the fault of the games if young people people throw their lives away for a game. That would fall on the parents for lack of proper parenting, and also the young people themselves for lack of self-control and knowing when to stop. Such people need to refrain from blaming something else for a choice they made. Yet you think by taking away all choices and leaving only the type of game you deem acceptable, that solves all problems. People need to take responsibility for their actions.

[Kirsten_Rev]

And yet you are here posting, at the forum of a ultra casual friendly game, this is pretty ironic.
Old mmorpgs, i do not miss them even a bit, they were punishing and stressful, and sorry to break your world but it was not good for young minds at all, the mmorpg i played in my young years were causing a ton of stress and kids were fighting in real life because of that game. There were several cases in my country of kids attacking their own parents because they interupted them in playing one of the "old style" mmorpg.
It was bad, often pay2win and was forcing youths to hardcore playing to keep competitve, often playing and ignoring school, not passing from class to class because of the game.
I was raised in those times, i experienced bad sides of online gaming, it made its terrible damage to our society, and you cannot denny this fact.
They were new, addicting and was hard to distiguish real life from online game for kids who played them, i knew in first person a boy who tried commit suicide because he has been hacked in Tibia.
These old games were like drugs given away for free, terribly designed and made to lure in you to spend all your time in them.

These bad sides apply to any form of online gaming, or really online interactions in general. It's the alter ego existing within a virtual space that creates problems for people, not whether a game features deep, time-consuming mechanics or pay-to-win loot boxes. There are stories of physical harm going back to the 70s and 80s, with studies showing that Pong could elicit negative physiological responses. A man died from a heart attack that arose from a compromised cardiovascular system exacerbated primarily by the Berzerk arcade game back in 1982. There have been suicides arising from old MMOs like EverQuest, and at least one infanticide resulting from a mother's addiction to FarmVille. It's all over the place.

That's not to say it isn't an issue. You're absolutely right to bring it up, and I offer my sympathies for what seems like a set of rough personal experiences. But it's a problem that has arisen with the internet and virtual online environments in general, not any specific title or type of online game.

[Vidu]

I am glad you have decided for everyone what an MMORPG needs to be. Perhaps these 'depressed, broken people' you spoke of sought an escape. Perhaps their circumstances made it so that they couldn't go out into the real world(physical disability) or did not wish to(social issues). Or perhaps it was simply more stimulating them to play complex games that engaged their brain. Now, a place where those players could feel like they had a home has been taken away. Now, all that exists are casual MMOs really. People have made RL friends and even significant others from these second homes that you criticize. I guess what I'm trying to say is, who are you to decide how others should spend their time?

I havent much to say on the issue that this thread is actually discussing since FFXIV is the first MMO I've ever played and I havent read the whole thread either, I just stumbled over this comment and have to say: I can relate to the talk about making RL-friendships and meeting your SO through the game.
And thats the reason I want to comment on this - remember that I said this was the first (and infact only) MMO I ever played? (I kinda do hope you remember because if you dont, you might wanna see a doctor for short-term-memory-loss... besides the point)

Maybe I'm missunderstanding your comment, but it seems to imply to me that you dont believe that making meanigful, real life connections is possible in this game - or in other "casual MMOs" - and I just want to assure you that it still is, that it still happens and that people are still grateful for that. And everytime I see comments wishing back for "the old days" when they could find friends within the game they were playing, I cant help but to think about all the amazing from all over the world that are in my FC and came to the last two EU-fanfests so we could all meet up, despite living thousands of kilometers apart. I cant help but remember a 10-hour flight I took to america to visit a friend from the game and about the other people who took a simliar long flight so we could all spend 2 amazing weeks together. I cant help to think about how I would have never met my boyfriend if it wasnt for this game!

Please, dont missunderstand this as me disagreeing with you - its very much the opposite! All I want to do is to point out that all of those amazing things - longlasting, meanigful friendships, finding love, finding joy - are still happening today, in this game and thats an amazing thing!
And I feel sorry for those who cant see that - probably not you, Zabuza, but certainly some other people here...

[Rufalus]

These replies are very on point. I agree, for sure there are different things that are good about old and new mmos, and many of those are not compatible with each other. Sometimes I miss certain things that old games did well, but most people today wouldn't like that style. At least that's what mmo devs believe and growth of subscriptions supports that.

Making money for the company I work for certainly isn't bringing me joy and it's not something I'll look back on in 40 years with any pride. If a shut-in wants to play FFXIV and they can afford it, then I say more power to them.

It's cool to see somebody who's aware of that and tolerant. I used to push myself to mental exhaustion, depression and break down. After a recovery period I began to live a much more self indulgent lifestyle, spending most of my time doing what I enjoy without feeling guilty about it. If there's no happiness then everything else in life loses meaning. We're people not machines. Talking like this reminds me of Eulmore..

I never felt insulted because I'm simply not inclined to ever feel insulted, but the steady decay of WoW in the name of "accessibility" is certainly one of the great tragedies of video game history.

At least for that specific game they made Classic version so the option is there to reject modern QoL. I hear it's quite authentic to the original.

[Nixxe]

At least for that specific game they made Classic version so the option is there to reject modern QoL. I hear it's quite authentic to the original.

I'm done doing business with Blizzard, but Classic wouldn't satisfy me anyway. I want a game that's still being developed, just in accordance with an older design philosophy, not a basically time locked blast from the past. Classic would have been a nice break, but I would have eventually run out of interesting things to do.

[Zabuza]

I havent much to say on the issue that this thread is actually discussing since FFXIV is the first MMO I've ever played and I havent read the whole thread either, I just stumbled over this comment and have to say: I can relate to the talk about making RL-friendships and meeting your SO through the game.
And thats the reason I want to comment on this - remember that I said this was the first (and infact only) MMO I ever played? (I kinda do hope you remember because if you dont, you might wanna see a doctor for short-term-memory-loss... besides the point)

Maybe I'm missunderstanding your comment, but it seems to imply to me that you dont believe that making meanigful, real life connections is possible in this game - or in other "casual MMOs" - and I just want to assure you that it still is, that it still happens and that people are still grateful for that. And everytime I see comments wishing back for "the old days" when they could find friends within the game they were playing, I cant help but to think about all the amazing from all over the world that are in my FC and came to the last two EU-fanfests so we could all meet up, despite living thousands of kilometers apart. I cant help but remember a 10-hour flight I took to america to visit a friend from the game and about the other people who took a simliar long flight so we could all spend 2 amazing weeks together. I cant help to think about how I would have never met my boyfriend if it wasnt for this game!

Please, dont missunderstand this as me disagreeing with you - its very much the opposite! All I want to do is to point out that all of those amazing things - longlasting, meanigful friendships, finding love, finding joy - are still happening today, in this game and thats an amazing thing!
And I feel sorry for those who cant see that - probably not you, Zabuza, but certainly some other people here...

Well, all I know is for me, the closest bonds I formed on an MMO were doing the Chains of Promathia missions with my static for the story at the time. Similar to how those who fight together on a battlefield form a unique, tight knit bond, the same applies when people struggle together. It doesn't exist as much in games like these because there really is no need for people to struggle together. Savage is optional and can easily be done in PF with people you won't see again. All the other content is done in DF, and you DEFINITELY don't see them again. The struggle with a certain group of people on a persistent basis is notably absent. With dungeons, you're lucky if you get a 'hi' from the people in your random group. The rest is just speed running the content, while probably looking at something on your other monitor. There is very little engagement, and most people only do them to reach their weekly tomestone cap.

[MonteCristo]

Well, all I know is for me, the closest bonds I formed on an MMO were doing the Chains of Promathia missions with my static for the story at the time. Similar to how those who fight together on a battlefield form a unique, tight knit bond, the same applies when people struggle together. It doesn't exist as much in games like these because there really is no need for people to struggle together. Savage is optional and can easily be done in PF with people you won't see again. All the other content is done in DF, and you DEFINITELY don't see them again. The struggle with a certain group of people on a persistent basis is notably absent. With dungeons, you're lucky if you get a 'hi' from the people in your random group. The rest is just speed running the content, while probably looking at something on your other monitor. There is very little engagement, and most people only do them to reach their weekly tomestone cap.

This is spot on...id pay good money for the devs to read this comment and actually have them take some form of action. Ive said for years this game feels very hollow in more ways than one.

[Nix]

Well, all I know is for me, the closest bonds I formed on an MMO were doing the Chains of Promathia missions with my static for the story at the time. Similar to how those who fight together on a battlefield form a unique, tight knit bond, the same applies when people struggle together. It doesn't exist as much in games like these because there really is no need for people to struggle together. Savage is optional and can easily be done in PF with people you won't see again. All the other content is done in DF, and you DEFINITELY don't see them again. The struggle with a certain group of people on a persistent basis is notably absent. With dungeons, you're lucky if you get a 'hi' from the people in your random group. The rest is just speed running the content, while probably looking at something on your other monitor. There is very little engagement, and most people only do them to reach their weekly tomestone cap.

Amen to this - not saying strong friendships aren't formed, but honestly I've found it harder to make those bonds - especially in the last 10 years of gaming.
I am still friends with many of my old linkshell members from FFXI - I started playing and met them back in 2004ish. In FFXIV, there's only really two players I've known since the game's release and who I would consider "close friends"... people seem content to play solo, hardly talk in chat, remain in FCs for the buffs over the companionship, and don't even really interact in dungeons unless it's to blame the someone for something (/sarcasm, but you get what I mean).

I feel like FFXIV, and modern MMOs too, that it's harder to forge those bonds because gameplay doesn't really foster it. It's not for lack of trying, but when you only need to check in with players once in a while to make progress, the social aspect of the game suffers.

That being said, it's not all bad. I have enjoyed seeing people come together this week for Moonfire Faire - Costa Del Sol on Hyperion has been pretty chatty & friendly; it's just a shame that this level of interaction will be gone until the next event that brings everyone together

[Keddera_StormMoon]

I know this annoys some people, but I miss the danger the overworld had in Everquest. Places like the commons had "wandering nightmares" in the form of the East Commons Griffon or the West Commons Hill Giant which would crush lowbies in the areas, but gave higher levels a chance to play hero to the lowbies and bring those nightmares down so they could farm in peace. I miss how Kithicor Woods was a nice friendly place to level during the day but turned into absolute hell at night.

But I don't miss the strict class and intense time requirements that came after Kunark. It really brought out the worst in the community and just went downhill after that.

I'm fan of the hub system that the modern MMO uses as it pushes players together and gives the game a bit of life when you aren't out there questing. When I'm in the overworld, I don't like seeing a lot of people - but I love seeing lots of players when I'm in villages and cities as it feels right (which is a large reason I keep my home Aetheryte in Limsa. It's never quiet in Limsa)

I don't mind how the games have gone more casual now, as I like to diversify what I play. I like having the freedom to play something else for a couple days and come back and not feel like I've lost a ton of time that I could of spent leveling my character. Keeps the game from feeling like a job. If I feel like I have to log in every day to a game even if I don't particularly want to, that's a bad sign and I usually drop the game from my library and never come back.

[CaptainLagbeard]

One thing I would say is a downgrade of quality for MMOs is the removal and streamlining of stuff like Talents and Specializations... Everyone is the exact same, the most you seem to get nowadays is pretty much choosing between 2-3 different skills...

But I do suppose it's very hard to make it so that it all stays relevant and balanced, those kinds of systems do often tend to run into the problem that there's things that are clearly better and everyone just does the same build...