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  1. #11
    Player
    Keddera_StormMoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    312
    Character
    Tifka Stormmoon
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    I know this annoys some people, but I miss the danger the overworld had in Everquest. Places like the commons had "wandering nightmares" in the form of the East Commons Griffon or the West Commons Hill Giant which would crush lowbies in the areas, but gave higher levels a chance to play hero to the lowbies and bring those nightmares down so they could farm in peace. I miss how Kithicor Woods was a nice friendly place to level during the day but turned into absolute hell at night.

    But I don't miss the strict class and intense time requirements that came after Kunark. It really brought out the worst in the community and just went downhill after that.

    I'm fan of the hub system that the modern MMO uses as it pushes players together and gives the game a bit of life when you aren't out there questing. When I'm in the overworld, I don't like seeing a lot of people - but I love seeing lots of players when I'm in villages and cities as it feels right (which is a large reason I keep my home Aetheryte in Limsa. It's never quiet in Limsa)

    I don't mind how the games have gone more casual now, as I like to diversify what I play. I like having the freedom to play something else for a couple days and come back and not feel like I've lost a ton of time that I could of spent leveling my character. Keeps the game from feeling like a job. If I feel like I have to log in every day to a game even if I don't particularly want to, that's a bad sign and I usually drop the game from my library and never come back.
    (3)

  2. #12
    Player
    ToniRomo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    236
    Character
    Toni Romo
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    MMOs used to be about exploring huge worlds, character progression, community and challenge.

    Now it is mostly just AFKing in town until you get queued in with some random strangers you'll never see again to do braindead content. The world itself might as well not be there once you are done leveling. There's no real sense of character progression.

    In playing the early 90s MMOs I was really excited thinking about what we would see the genre evolve to as technology advanced in 20 years. It feels like everything got simplified and we evolved backwards.
    (11)

  3. #13
    Player
    CaptainLagbeard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    2,307
    Character
    Rhaya Jakkya
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    One thing I would say is a downgrade of quality for MMOs is the removal and streamlining of stuff like Talents and Specializations... Everyone is the exact same, the most you seem to get nowadays is pretty much choosing between 2-3 different skills...

    But I do suppose it's very hard to make it so that it all stays relevant and balanced, those kinds of systems do often tend to run into the problem that there's things that are clearly better and everyone just does the same build...
    (6)

  4. #14
    Player
    Kleeya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    1,183
    Character
    Kleeya White
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Even if it isn't clearly better people will still calculate what is 0,26% stronger and tell you to use that. When theorycrafters, even before an update is live, are datamining the game datas to put some "if you dont choose this you should be ashamed of hindering your party and deserve to be kicked of it" guide on the net two hours after the maintenance is done, we cant really complain if the developpers end up removing choices from the game. The players have brought this upon themselves. If you dont believe me just go on the tank forum and try to tell that tenacity is a viable choice compared to dps direct hit one. The difference is so tiny, and yet people are so passionnate to tell you that you shouldn't use tenacity at all XD

    Choices are good for games who can be played solo, like Titan Quest or Grim Dawn. Where you can try weird things all that you want without someone yelling at you to go see this youtube guide to do the same as everyone else. But not for mmos.
    (9)

  5. #15
    Player
    Ayuhra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Palace of the Dead
    Posts
    1,483
    Character
    Ayuh'ra Bajhiri
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 90
    MMORPGs on the whole have gotten better, I think. They're faster, more streamlined, less frustrating and classes for the most part are more well designed.

    But there was something about the chaos and rough hewn edges of the old days that is missed. Some of the "RPG" parts of MMORPG have been abandoned for the streamlining of content.

    We are also losing the sense of community. This is most noticeable in WoW where every server was a community where people knew each other at least on some level.
    (8)

  6. #16
    Player
    Jonnycbad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    2,252
    Character
    Seraphus Highwynn
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard View Post
    One thing I would say is a downgrade of quality for MMOs is the removal and streamlining of stuff like Talents and Specializations... Everyone is the exact same, the most you seem to get nowadays is pretty much choosing between 2-3 different skills...

    But I do suppose it's very hard to make it so that it all stays relevant and balanced, those kinds of systems do often tend to run into the problem that there's things that are clearly better and everyone just does the same build...
    It's hard to balance specializations when people use spreadsheet math and simulators to figure out the best combination for most scenarios. Then, players flock to those "build" and anyone not using -that- is seen as gimp/weak/useless. It becomes an illusion of choice. These kinds of things work well in offline games, but when playing with other people, players prefer metas rather than what's -fun-.

    FFXI had a level cap of 75 for about 7 or 8 years, but they introcuced the "Merit System" to allow Lv75 players to accrue points to spec into new abilities, traits, spells for their jobs. Problem was, you couldn't max them all out. Instead, every job had 5 merit skills that ranged from level 0 (can't use) to level 5 (max). Spending 1 merit point unlocked the skill to use at it's weakest potency or shortest duration or longest recast. Subsequent merit points increased its efficacy or recast. Now, some players might want to spend all 10 merit points to unlock all 5 skills at level 1, while other players unlocked 2 skills at level 5 and left the other 3 locked. Regardless of what flavor you wanted, there was always a meta for every job, and 9/10 times it involved maxing out 2 skills to level 5. Any White Mage that came to party that didn't have Protectga V and Shellga V unlocked was gimped, a Dragoon without Angon maxed out to level 5 was useless, RDMs had to have at least 1 point in Dia III, Black Mages had to have 5 points in Burst II, and 5 points in Freeze II, etc.

    The illusion of choice means you likely won't have a true talent/specialization system. That's why they removed attribute point allocation in FFXIV. You'd never put VIT on a DRG or MND on a BLM, so why even bother with them to begin with?
    (8)

  7. #17
    Player
    Misutoraru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    947
    Character
    Misutoraru Valkyrie
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnycbad View Post
    FFXI had a level cap of 75 for about 7 or 8 years, but they introcuced the "Merit System" to allow Lv75 players to accrue points to spec into new abilities, traits, spells for their jobs. Problem was, you couldn't max them all out. Instead, every job had 5 merit skills that ranged from level 0 (can't use) to level 5 (max). Spending 1 merit point unlocked the skill to use at it's weakest potency or shortest duration or longest recast. Subsequent merit points increased its efficacy or recast. Now, some players might want to spend all 10 merit points to unlock all 5 skills at level 1, while other players unlocked 2 skills at level 5 and left the other 3 locked. Regardless of what flavor you wanted, there was always a meta for every job, and 9/10 times it involved maxing out 2 skills to level 5. Any White Mage that came to party that didn't have Protectga V and Shellga V unlocked was gimped, a Dragoon without Angon maxed out to level 5 was useless, RDMs had to have at least 1 point in Dia III, Black Mages had to have 5 points in Burst II, and 5 points in Freeze II, etc.
    Never play FFXI, but have play tons of Korean and western MMO that using similar system, and it is also one of the reason I quit WOW so early
    it will never be balance, there always will be meta (jeez even GW2 have meta) and when there are meta, there will always be meta or nothing mentality in community. Worst case, dev trying to balance or eliminate meta, it will be meta 1 patch and turn to trash next patch. I hope FFXIV will never introduce such system. Balancing 10 DPS jobs is already a difficult task that forcing dev to "dump" down a bit on job design, imagine if Talents system introduce to FFXIV, it is gonna be a mess
    (2)

  8. #18
    Player
    Qeilos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    135
    Character
    Ailin Dorne
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by SenorPatty View Post
    Only better because the time these mmorpgs were fashioned in suited the demographic who had the time to spend on all that's listed.
    This argument never makes sense. YOU may have less time now because you got older but what about the people who are the age you were then. Or are you just going to pretend that some massive paradigm shift happened in the world and EVERYONE universally has less time now for some reason.
    (7)

  9. #19
    Player
    Jonnycbad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    2,252
    Character
    Seraphus Highwynn
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Qeilos View Post
    This argument never makes sense. YOU may have less time now because you got older but what about the people who are the age you were then. Or are you just going to pretend that some massive paradigm shift happened in the world and EVERYONE universally has less time now for some reason.
    The argument actually does make sense if you look at it from a holistic standpoint. Back in my day I was 15 or 16 when FFXI debuted. I was in highschool, circa 2003. Around this time, there was none of the following competing for my time in FFXI:
    -Facebook
    -Myspace
    -Netflix
    -Instagram
    -Reddit


    The lack of social media or other forms of electronic entertainment simply didn't exist to vie for my time. Now? Every game has online playability, we spend most of our time on our phones on various apps and on social media etc. Back then you could really immerse yourself in FFXI for 9 hours a day to make incremental progress. Most of today's MMO developers realize people generally don't want to spend a majority of their time doing only one thing. Therefore, they simplify and streamline the game's content to make it more readily consumable by not just hardcore players but casuals too. FFXI was an earlier MMO and thus they didn't have the data back then to act on it; however starting out was extremely hard about half-way through the game's lifetime. This is because around the mid 2000's, most players were at the level cap and there's no incentive to go and help new players with outdated content. There was nothing like Duty Roulette or level-syncing gear, and most level 75 players didn't have level 40 gear laying around to help a player through a level 40 instance.

    Basically, back then, you had to spend about 7-9 hours a day to make any real progress in XI. You couldn't login for 1-2 hours and expect to get anywhere, as it could take 1-2 hours to simply find 5 other players to form a party with to just get some EXP, and even that'd maybe get you 1 level. By today's standards, we'd call anyone who plays more than 4-5 hours a day hardcore, and anyone who plays 1-2 casual, but back then you either played 5+ hours a day or not at all because it was futile to be casual back then. A waste of time and effort. Now players can login for 1-2 hours, do their dailys or a few dungeons and get some real level ups, then log out and go do something else and not really feel like they are lagging behind the entire community like people used to in XI.
    (3)

  10. #20
    Player
    Barraind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    1,113
    Character
    Barraind Faylestar
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    MMO's lost a LOT of the sense of community.

    In EQ, if you were even halfway memorable, EVERYONE on the server knew you. If you were a screwup? People knew. Guild hopper? People knew. Someone to be wary of? Good luck getting groups outside the other screwups. Fantastic player? Everyone wanted you in a group. Did you craft (especially with the skill for racial armor)? Tells every day. I was the only person on Tribunal who actively smithed Human Cultural armor. It was absurd how many tells I got a day about it.

    You could track peoples name changes on a lot of servers. Who is this random new person nobody has ever heard of with 4 pieces of gear from X zone thats app'ing to the not_best_guild? Oh, thats probably soandso after a name and race change, they're the only person on the server who got that combination of loot, left the guild after throwing a hissy fit, havent been on in a few days, and we're pretty sure they PA'd the account.

    The community policed itself, and was MUCH better for it.

    Guilds were important and mattered. People in 14 can change a FC 3 times in a week and drop their static just before a raid to join a different one and people shrug and say thats a perfectly normal thing to do. The hell it is.


    I dont think graphics actually makes MMO's better. I still play EQ and City of Heroes, and I much prefer the experience to some of the play us cause we're new and flashy" games. I play these games for the systems as opposed to the graphics.

    Similarly, I dont find twitch combat to be a defining quality of goodness. You could TYPE in chat all raid long while playing EQ, and it made the experience more enjoyable. It wasnt 'gottamashabuttoneveryhalfasecondoreverythingfallsapart'.

    I miss the open world and dungeon crawl from older games. Current MMO design feels stale and unimaginative. We arent traversing through massive open world zones. We're going down hallways. And its not like theres an enticing narrative in those hallways now. Heroics in WoW were mostly hallways, but they felt alive. Hallways even in 14 feel like hallways. Copperbell feels great. Haukke feels great. Stormblood feels like a hallway. Shadowbringers is a hallway with EXPLOSIONS. I'm not exploring this castle, or this sea battle, or this countryside, or this magical fae hideaway. I'm taking Mister Toad's Wild Ride at disneyland instead of exploring the Wind in the Willows.


    Things felt EPIC in the old games.

    They dont anymore.


    I also hate WoW for their godawful ilvl formula design of gear. And that developers these days see it and think "This is awesome, it lets me take all the work out of item design' when item design is one of the single most important aspects of an MMO, Please stop doing it that way. Please.

    It also started the trend where every (or maybe all but 1) piece of gear you have gets upgraded every raid tier.

    We had gear in the old days that lasted YEARS, because it had stats or click effects, or some specific worn effects or procs that were irreplaceable. I STILL carry my epic 2.0 in EQ with me in my bag slot for its click effect 12 (14?) expansions later. It STILL is more relevant than 99% of the gear I will loot in EQ. It will be more relevant in 2 years than anything I get as gear in 14 during Shadowbringers will be in 6.0. If you have a few items from the base game, they're STILL USEFUL TODAY for certain effects. Or it lasted because it came off mobs designed to be a challenge for more than a month or two. Kill the super big bad of the expansion? Your gear drops from it might last past the super big bad of the NEXT expansion (for the first few years of EQ, anyway). Not 'Oh, hey, you killed this planes travelling god and took his sword. Awesome. By the way, the expansion hits tomorrow and Chet the Stablehand will give you a better weapon for killing 5 mutated ant people that are threatning to bore a colony under his cows favorite patch of ground.


    In playing the early MMOs I was really excited thinking about what we would see the genre evolve to as technology advanced in 20 years. It feels like everything got simplified and we evolved backwards.
    Me as a 17 year old in 2000 playing EQ: I cant imagine what they can do to improve on this genre in 20 years.
    Me as a 35 year old in 2019 playing EQ: Very little.

    Look at crafting. Is it better than the EQ days? Yes. But you cant tell me its even remotely close to where it should be. Like, we arent discovering 30 item recipes that can use a basic sword recipe with an imbued red gem and some magic moon metal instead of iron, perfectly crafted magical pommel guards, an elaborate setting for said gem and some combination of distillates of wild magic and energy to make a glowing red sword that does fire damage and/or has a fire damage proc and has a wicked red glow to it. We're using the same formula of stuff with a higher item level to make the same thing with a higher item level.

    Holy crap thats depressing.
    (13)
    Last edited by Barraind; 08-07-2019 at 05:18 AM.

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