Thread: First week of 5.05, healer performance for E4S

Originally Posted by DawnSolaria

You telling me to trust you on buff being broken is like me wanting you to believe white mages is stupidly OP right now.

Both AST and SCH outperform WHM with heals and utility. All WHM has is it's damage difference. Once that's gone, and knowing SE overbuffing AST again is going to be a thing, WHM will have nothing left for itself. It's not as OP as people think it is. It's strong, but not by some huge margain.

In all fairness, this is a VERY small sample.

To put some numbers to this, out of >200,000 attempts on E4S, only 1,314 groups have cleared, for a clear rate of 0.6%. (By comparison, Levi had a clear rate of 2.5%, nearly 5x as much, Voidwalker at 2.7%, and Eden Prime at 4.5%.) Source: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ric=fightwipes

Further, this was the first week, which means that in all likelihood most groups aren't optimizing yet, and instead doing whatever they have to do in order to clear.

I'm not saying that AST might not still need some improvements, but it's very soon to judge if this is needed on DPS specifically after the changes that came out exactly one week ago with new content that also came out at the same time.

The fact that monk and dragoon are that far ahead of samurai and they offer utility... just crazy balance issues there.

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

And what about that 1.2k dps that astro contributed through cards? Well it also increased by 33%. Now it's about 1.6k. This rounds out astro raid contribution at about 7.6k. That is still at about 95% of what the white mage contributed.

That's where I'm not so sure about your calculation. If we assume everyone gears up at the same rate, even if the AST multiplier (buff) stays the same, the 4 DPS that get buffed throughout the fight get even higher numbers, and this addition ends up outnumbering the WHM's personal DPS.
Because in your calculation, you even out 33% dmg up on WHM to 33% dmg up on four DPS. Given how Crit and Direct Hit scale on DPS, I'm not sure WHM's dmg curve is as exponential as DPS roles.
So that's where the AST buffs beef thoses numbers even higher up, breaking the proportional increase. Especially when you also consider how every buff multiplies (and not just add up).

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

. That is still at about 95% of what the white mage contributed.

But that's fine though? 95% damage contribution is fine. It's literally impossible for their damage potential to be 100% identical. AST offers better healing and more mitigation than WHM. If their damage was the same as well that would be unfair.

Originally Posted by Mansion

That's where I'm not so sure about your calculation. If we assume everyone gears up at the same rate, even if the AST multiplier (buff) stays the same, the 4 DPS that get buffed throughout the fight get even higher numbers, and this addition ends up outnumbering the WHM's personal DPS.
Because in your calculation, you even out 33% dmg up on WHM to 33% dmg up on four DPS. Given how Crit and Direct Hit scale on DPS, I'm not sure WHM's dmg curve is as exponential as DPS roles.
So that's where the AST buffs beef thoses numbers even higher up, breaking the proportional increase. Especially when you also consider how every buff multiplies (and not just add up).

Direct hit is linear. Only crit scales with itself. Last expansion, it was very common for healers to stack as much crit as possible. I highly doubt that will change this expansion, so whatever scaling the dps experience, healers will experience too. The problem with your reasoning is that the four dps alone very seldom get buffed when the healers do not. I can think of two cases where this is true: dance partner and brotherhood. Both of which have a very minimal impact on the numbers that I was stating. "Normal" raid buffs like trick attack, chain strategem, battle voice, etc affect the healers as well.

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

But that's fine though? 95% damage contribution is fine. It's literally impossible for their damage potential to be 100% identical. AST offers better healing and more mitigation than WHM. If their damage was the same as well that would be unfair.

If astro dps was at 4.8k then they would be equal. It is not impossible, far from it actually. Also whether 95% is "fine" or not wasn't part of the point I was trying to make. You say astro has more mitigaion. Ok, I'll agree with that because astro has CU and neutral sect vs white mage's temperance. You also say that asto has more healing. That is where I will disagree. There is no way that astro has more healing output than white mage. You can look at the fflogs hps percentiles and you might think that means that astro can outheal white mage, but that's simply not the case. Hps is and always has been a pretty useless metric in this game.

Originally Posted by Mendalas

The fact that monk and dragoon are that far ahead of samurai and they offer utility... just crazy balance issues there.

FFlogs includes raid buff contribution on those numbers

Originally Posted by Mansion

That's where I'm not so sure about your calculation. If we assume everyone gears up at the same rate, even if the AST multiplier (buff) stays the same, the 4 DPS that get buffed throughout the fight get even higher numbers, and this addition ends up outnumbering the WHM's personal DPS.
Because in your calculation, you even out 33% dmg up on WHM to 33% dmg up on four DPS. Given how Crit and Direct Hit scale on DPS, I'm not sure WHM's dmg curve is as exponential as DPS roles.
So that's where the AST buffs beef thoses numbers even higher up, breaking the proportional increase. Especially when you also consider how every buff multiplies (and not just add up).

You do have to take into account how the increased gear means that WHM would have to heal less and be allowed to DPS more. Right now the situation could very well be, given the lack of clears vs attempts, that the healing requirements are high enough that a WHM cannot push their DPS as hard as they can. Look at normal where there is less healing requirement and a WHM can push their damage and they maintain a sizable gap in rDPS between them and AST. Even potentially outputting more rDPS then tanks.