Post-Shadowbringers Speculation

[Jaywalker]

A catch-all for any predictions, theories, questions, and other discussion that doesn't quite fit into an existing thread for post-Shadowbringers. Can be outlandish or not so much, but for people popping by:

THIS IS A SPOILERS THREAD.

Feel free to bounce around different topics, as long as it's lore speculation figure it should fit.

[Jaywalker]

To start off, I think we really need to pay more attention to numerology with this game because some of what's going down is looking insanely suspicious and related.

The Convocation of Fourteen featured Amaurot's top Ascian scholars of the time, all working together to try and prevent the Final Days. One left for reasons unknown, thirteen remained--and yet when Hydaelyn successfully split Zodiark, the number of WORLDS total (not just shards, I'm including the source here) is fourteen.

Additionally, Eorzea worships the Twelve. Besides these deities, we also know that there are two supergods with Hydaelyn and Zodiark who are treated as similarly legit even if formal worship is less prevalent. Technically speaking, that also comes out to fourteen.

On top of this, the Thirteenth shard is confirmed fallen to Darkness/the Void when Igeyorhm completely botched her calamity. Effectively this meant that she had no world of her own anymore, rendering her incomplete in a way. Just before Thordan, she and Lahabrea fuse to form Ascian Prime. This possibly could refer to the weird duality of Nald'Thal, since parallels exist between gods across history and cultures on Hydaelyn (Azemya and Nald'Thal both have links to Sophia, Azim and Azemya are linked while Nhaama and Menphina are linked, etc.) regardless of gender.

Other numerology bits that seem fishy to me, lore mentions seven heavens and seven hells. Fourteen afterlives total. Twelve of these are elementally aligned with the six elements while the final two are bastions from which all of the deities together can rule over the other heavens and hells. Home bases, more or less.

We know there have been seven Calamities so far. From what I understand, six have been elementally aligned while the last with Bahamut was all elements in combination. This also reflects the setup of the seven heavens/hells concept and, on top of that, also ties back into fourteen.

I don't know what the Convocation of Fourteen Thirteen did ritually when they made Zodiark past excessive human sacrifice, but I think the metaphysics were seriously shaped by that group and its structure. At this point I do think that the Twelve + Hydaelyn and Zodiark are all reflections of the Convocation of Fourteen. I don't think they're the same, but I do think links exist between the gods/primals/??? and those specific Ascians.

I don't currently have clear theories on why there were three unbroken Ascians or what that means relative to the Fourteen, but I do feel really confident that the Warring Triad as another trio tied to Freudian Id, Ego, and Superego ideas. Maybe there's some relation, maybe not. I do think that Elidibus and Sophia are linked and that Sophia's backstory is heavy foreshadowing for Elidibus. I don't know necessarily how Zurvan and Sephirot tie to Lahabrea and Emet-Selch respectively. My first instinct was Emet-Selch as Zurvan given the kinds of lines Zurvan says in his fight and the way Emet-Selch views morality and mortality, but honestly Sephirot is insanely interesting and I have no idea what is going on with Lahabrea because he's a massive weirdo.

[Kallera]

If J may add to your theory on how Sephirot and Lahabrea may be linked...

Sephirot is regarded by its worshippers and used by the allagans as a god that creates life.
Lahabrea is known in Amaurot as a, if not the, top authority on Creation Magic, and said to be skilled in phantom creation. As an Ascian, he was behind a lot of the “get disaffected locals to summon primal, hilarity ensues.” plots up until his death, which was a (bastardized?) form of his practice.

[Jaywalker]

If J may add to your theory on how Sephirot and Lahabrea may be linked...

Sephirot is regarded by its worshippers and used by the allagans as a god that creates life.
Lahabrea is known in Amaurot as a, if not the, top authority on Creation Magic, and said to be skilled in phantom creation. As an Ascian, he was behind a lot of the “get disaffected locals to summon primal, hilarity ensues.” plots up until his death.

TRUE.

Honestly, no shade at SE but I'm kind of pissed at Lahabrea for getting himself eaten by Thordan. It's ironic that after teaching how to summon/create primals he gets consumed by one of them, but it feels like we didn't get to know him really because 110% of the time we interact with the guy he's basically laughing maniacally and monologuing like a nerd.

[Jaywalker]

Been trying to resist doing a double-post-in-thread-I-started deal, but had a couple of other bits cross my mind that don't fit in other threads.

First, keep thinking back to The Twinning and how a variant of Alexander wound up being the boss. At the time just kind of went "oh that's odd" but looking back I think that's going to be really significant. Emet-Selch had a whole conversation with G'raha about how the Crystal Tower and Allagan technology by rights shouldn't be enabling time travel or interdimensional physical teleportation between shards as the WoL/D manages. And G'raha gives a weird non-answer when he asks.

I don't think we've seen the last of bizarro time/space travel. And while I might be wrong/take this speculation with a big grain of salt, I'm starting to suspect we might not have even seen the last of Emet-Selch.

Technically speaking I can think of two straightforward ways he could come back without breaking with logistics of the universe, one tying to the clone bodies (which were emphasized too hard to just get discarded offhand imo) and one with the Alexander stuff. I also am suspicious because while it's possible Amaurot will simply degrade in similar fashion to the Warring Triad statues in Azys Lla (trees are already dying :<), the fact that there are shade vendors and NPCs to talk to has me unbelievably suspicious. That and they built his character up insanely, insanely well and it would surprise me a little if he was gone this fast.

I don't mean any of this in a wishful-thinking way, knowing the guy got popular. After finishing MSQ I just went "well he's dead and gone and that's done" but now I'm starting to wonder a little. Especially since Minfilia pulled so many weird sticking-around moves on this front too.

Slightly different note, Lahabrea being a really powerful Amaurotine creation specialist and doing so much ritual stuff reminded me of the fact that he oh-so-dramatically exclaimed that the Ultima Weapon was powered by the Heart of Sabik, demonstrating a fraction of Zodiark's power.

"WHAT THE HELL IS SABIK????" has become a question that keeps me up at night, and if this doesn't come back and get addressed I don't know what I'll do with myself.

At this point I'm starting to wonder if it's the heart of one of Lahabrea's coworkers in the Convocation of Fourteen who sacrificed themself to Zodiark, but it's still wild speculation.

[LineageRazor]

First, keep thinking back to The Twinning and how a variant of Alexander wound up being the boss. At the time just kind of went "oh that's odd" but looking back I think that's going to be really significant. Emet-Selch had a whole conversation with G'raha about how the Crystal Tower and Allagan technology by rights shouldn't be enabling time travel or interdimensional physical teleportation between shards as the WoL/D manages. And G'raha gives a weird non-answer when he asks.

If you read the text nodes scattered through the second leg of the Twinning, it discusses how the Ironworks was tackling the problem of how to travel through time (which would be necessary, to undo what had been done) - and that they found a potential solution based on a study of Primals. Retrospectively, I suspect that research mostly focused on one Primal in particular: Alexander, who became the template for the final boss. How they were able to study Alexander while he's sealed away is unclear, but it was definite foreshadowing for the final boss of the dungeon.

[Jaywalker]

If you read the text nodes scattered through the second leg of the Twinning, it discusses how the Ironworks was tackling the problem of how to travel through time (which would be necessary, to undo what had been done) - and that they found a potential solution based on a study of Primals. Retrospectively, I suspect that research mostly focused on one Primal in particular: Alexander, who became the template for the final boss. How they were able to study Alexander while he's sealed away is unclear, but it was definite foreshadowing for the final boss of the dungeon.

Ah will double check! I desperately didn't want to delay my party at the time haha, but that sounds crazy interesting. Still think there's going to be more going on there, this plot can only thicken from here lol. Thanks for letting me know!

[FJerome]

My one concern about the Twelve meaning anything deeper than just local folklore is I don't think we've ever seen any evidence they've ever been worshiped outside Eorzea, unlike religions with dual Light/Sun and Moon/Dark forces which just keep popping up.


For other speculation, I think the 14th's relationship with Elidibus may become important, especially if the speculation is correct that the WoLD is 9 parts of the 14th's soul and Unukalhai is another fragment. Emet-Selch seemed to have been pushing us forward to try and restore the 14th as his equal and companion but Elidibus seems pretty content to have a teacher/student relationship with Unukalhai. I'm wondering if Elidibus may have had some sort of mentorship role to the 14th and, besides everything else going on, if he isn't going to try and champion Unukalhai just so he gets to be the dominant personality following our inevitable soul-merger.

[Iscah]

First, keep thinking back to The Twinning and how a variant of Alexander wound up being the boss. At the time just kind of went "oh that's odd" but looking back I think that's going to be really significant. Emet-Selch had a whole conversation with G'raha about how the Crystal Tower and Allagan technology by rights shouldn't be enabling time travel or interdimensional physical teleportation between shards as the WoL/D manages. And G'raha gives a weird non-answer when he asks.

Worth noting in G'raha's "non-answer" (which is still very vague and I'm not sure what some of it was alluding to) - they tamed the "wings of time" which is a specific phrase that is used to describe Alexander's powers.

Alexander is definitely key to, at very least, what they were doing in the Twinning and how they got their time machine functioning. The central chamber is structured resembling Alexander's core (the Heart of the Creator raid), with the huge hanging crystal and the pool of green aether at the bottom.

The three datalogs correspond to the three Ironworks raids (and their numbers to the relevant game patches): Datalog 2.5 covers opening the tower and finding G'raha; 3.5 discusses time travel and alludes to Alexander; 4.5 discusses traversing the aetherial rift, and Omega's ability to do so. Together, the three elements that they will need to construct their time machine.

Ah will double check! I desperately didn't want to delay my party at the time haha, but that sounds crazy interesting. Still think there's going to be more going on there, this plot can only thicken from here lol. Thanks for letting me know!

If you've got one of your text logs set up to display scripts (there are separate settings for NPC 'battle dialogue' and normal script), you can skim through the text while you're in the dungeon, then open up the log and read it properly afterwards.

[Nononu]

I have to agree, uncertainly though, that I don't think this is the last we'll see of Emet.

Firstly, as you said... they just built him up *way, way* too well to just let that be the end. In my humble opinion, and realizing it's entirely subjective, he's just way too good of a character. (I don't even want to say villain. He did horrible things, but he's not a psychopath, and yes I'm sorry I would have loved to have helped him. Not all villains need redemption, I agree, but... he just wanted his home back. That and how utterly hunched over he was at the end, so tired of everything, so world weary, broke me.)

Secondly - and I only watched the cutscene ONCE, because I just can't bring myself to watch it again just yet - the auracite that was attempted to contain him broke into pieces in Hades' body, instead of remaining whole (which would make me think it would be weaker for that, but I don't know and I have no evidence to back that up). The final piece he pulled out. And at the very end, Emet *is still there*. Physically. He is *not contained* in the auracite. Nor was he consumed. He did crumble, but that's... not a big deal for an Ascian, or shouldn't be. Aside from their soul being contained and destroyed, they can't die. They just bodyswap. (I suppose an argument could be made that the thing we saw was his soul being destroyed and not really his body there, but.. ehn.. we just have too little information here to make a -solid- argument one way or the other.) Speaking of - literally one of the first things we see in regards to him is the many, many containers holding clones of his. I just find it hard to believe that Squeenix would show that for pretty much no reason, if he truly is indeed 100% dead.

There is so much more that could be done with him, storywise, and a lot to lose (I feel) if that was it for him. And let's be real - Sqeenix LOVES a good non-psychopathic antagonist redemption arc. Maybe Gaius is enough for them... but I doubt it.

This probably adds nothing to the discussion, but I just have really strong feelings about Emet-Selch and the only thing I regret is there wasn't *more* with him. He quickly shoved Shadowbringers into being my favorite expac with his characterization alone. So I'd really, REALLY like to see more done with him.

Edit: I would like to add, and again this is only opinion, that him denying redemption at the end from everyone STILL begging him to turn away, just is too close to Zenos' whole arc in Stormblood. Even at the end, Lyse was still begging him to rethink everything despite what he had done - same for everyone (but mostly the twins and the WoL) and Emet. They both denied turning away from their path... now, personally, I think it'd be a FANTASTIC parallel if we still had "revived" Zenos on the war path (as that's all he's shown to be interested in) vs "revived" Emet-Selch turning away to be shown that, hey, yes, we're sundered, we're not less, look at all we've done, look at all we could do, you could have a place here, etc. I like parallels in stories though, so again. Opinion. Grain of salt.