If SCH got Energy Drain back, why not do the same for WHMs?

[Archwizard]

Sch is different from whm because we want to use aetherflow on cd to gain mp, but we also don't want to waste our stacks because they build fairy gauge.

Sure. And on WHM if you're holding 3 lilies, you're neither generating more nor nurturing the Blood Lily.
There's nothing stopping SCH from popping Aetherflow for MP when they still have stacks, except for the fact that it's a waste, much like holding three Lilies or leaving the Blood Lily too long.

I think giving back stoneskin (untraited) to white mage at the cost of 1 lily per use would be a fair compromise.

While a weaker Regen or shield option consuming a Lily would be easier to "dump" on a tank.

If the argument is that the oGCD skills we have are more than sufficient for keeping a tank alive such that we aren't burning Lilies fast enough, how would giving us more of the same tools remedy that issue?
It seems like you're taking the "dump" part too literally here. The goal of dumping at all is to continue to gain some degree of value from them.

I like the idea, however to not make it bonkers as all heck, using a lily that way should not build up the blood lily. Otherwise it would be massively overpowered.

I don't think it would be "massively" overpowered, since even if you're nurturing the Blood Lily in the process, you still have to deal with the fact those same GCDs could be spent on, say, Glare (or even a rank of Stone, depending on the level in which the dump spell is introduced).
But having it not build the Blood Lily is still something worth considering, even if seemingly counterproductive.

IMHO I think the potency of the lily skills would need to be toned down quite drastically to remain balanced as an oGCD, it'd likely have us clipping horridly again and it'd just lose the current satisfying feel of the whole mechanic.

I'm not sure where in my post I gave the impression I wanted the lily heals to be oGCD. I love them in their GCD states since they allow for weaving and on-the-move healing, and the potency they offer gives me a tool for snap-swapping to a tank when casting a Cure II would be too slow.
I only mentioned that they're on the GCD for the sake of illustrating that it's harder to dump them than it would be to dump the oGCD heals Scholars have.

[Lagomorph]

Sure. And on WHM if you're holding 3 lilies, you're neither generating more nor nurturing the Blood Lily.
There's nothing stopping SCH from popping Aetherflow for MP when they still have stacks, except for the fact that it's a waste, much like holding three Lilies or leaving the Blood Lily too long.

The process of generating and using a blood lily is usually a dps loss. Sitting on your lillies just means that you're wasting heals, something that is of little consequence when there isn't any active healing to be done. It's different on sch because our fairy gauge doesn't need to be used immediately, which is why prior to energy drain being introduced a sch sometimes wanted to through out lustrates before using aetherflow even though they went 100% into overheal. Unless there is downtime or a phase with multiple targets for misery, there is rarely any gain from throwing out a 100% overheal afflatus spell, which is why these two are fundamentally different. If there were not fairy gauge and scholars had no incentive to use every aetherflow stack, then your comparison would work better. The reason that I proposed stoneskin would be a fair way to use lillies is that it would allow a white mage to use a lily to have some value, even if that value wouldn't come into play until the future. The reason why your idea doesn't really work is that it'd make misery too strong. Right now misery is a 900 potency gcd, that requires 3 gcds to build up to. So essentially over 4 gcds you're averaging 225 potency per gcd. Now imagine if those 3 gcds to build up to misery were 300 potency instant cast glares. Suddenly the average potency of those 4 gcds is 450. It's the same thing if it were ogcd. You could even make your lilies be usable on a 0 potency ogcd, and it would still be too powerful. This is because now that 900 potency attack that took 4 gcds to use before only takes 1 gcd. If you want lillies to be able to be used for damage, misery needs to be either entirely reworked or just removed entirely.

[Hereon]

I don't think it would be "massively" overpowered, since even if you're nurturing the Blood Lily in the process, you still have to deal with the fact those same GCDs could be spent on, say, Glare (or even a rank of Stone, depending on the level in which the dump spell is introduced).
But having it not build the Blood Lily is still something worth considering, even if seemingly counterproductive.

The Problem here is that every Lily spent working towards misery is allready worth 225 potency. Even something like a 80 potency offensive lily + building towards the blood lily would be stronger than casting glare. Which would kind of defeat the whole point of the new lily system in generall since it is suppose to give you something in return for not doing dmg. Whoever i like the idea of a buff that has been floating around now. or maybe just go the MP route and give the targeted player some MP back at the cost of a lily. allthough whm himself doesnt struggle to much, it would give whm some sort of support for other healers and casters.

[nalol]

the best would be to change ED .. coz now ED isn't used as a AF stack dump but as a way to increase dps.

If whm get similar lilly dump .. they'll use it to dps.


they should give some kind of CD or condition to ED so it's more tied to healing .. or better .. should have made a Fey damage ability that uses 50 fey gauge instead of ED

[Billythepancake]

the best would be to change ED .. coz now ED isn't used as a AF stack dump but as a way to increase dps.

If whm get similar lilly dump .. they'll use it to dps.


they should give some kind of CD or condition to ED so it's more tied to healing .. or better .. should have made a Fey damage ability that uses 50 fey gauge instead of ED

I disagree 100%, if ED were tied to the fairy gauge, we'd be back to 5.0 scholar and forced to overheal again,ED is fine as is, scholar should be a juggling act of balancing heals and dps, and ED consuming aetherflow is perfect for that. (Now they just need to fix the other issues with SCH)

As for the topic at hand, I do believe WHM could use a non heal stack dump, but not necessarily a dps dump, maybe a small buff dump would be better? Maybe they can increase their SS by 5% for x amount of time or whatever, or if it is a dps dump, then they'd have to nerf the power of misery so WHM isnt too strong.

[Mansion]

the best would be to change ED .. coz now ED isn't used as a AF stack dump but as a way to increase dps.

If whm get similar lilly dump .. they'll use it to dps.


they should give some kind of CD or condition to ED so it's more tied to healing .. or better .. should have made a Fey damage ability that uses 50 fey gauge instead of ED

But once again, useing ED for DPS is not sacrificing required healing. It's just that 3 healing cooldowns every minute is overkill, most of the time (unless savage healing check, but then you have a co heal to share the burden).
The return of ED is a good thing, and I'm pretty sure if ED did no damage but gave back MP and Fairy gauge, SCH would use it regardless.


Back to the Lily "problem", I think the current design is a bit more flexible than Aetherflow, because you can hold the Lilies until needed, and you can hold the Misery too, as Lilies will still generate.
I see the problem of making Afflatuses oGCD, because they kind of get in the way of Tetra (Assize possibly but it's used for damage more than anything). They now offer a bit of weaving, which is welcome.
The Lilies are powerful... but the game still does not require THAT much of a healing powerhouse. So, I do often throw Solaces or Raptures though they are not so much needed, but I don't want to sit with 3 Lilies. But given the current pDPS of White Mage, a DPS Lily dump would be a bit unfair I think. While a weaker Regen or shield option consuming a Lily would be easier to "dump" on a tank.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I know WHM is doing really good right now, but I do want to kind of bring up how lacking wings feels. Maybe it's because I can't actually SEE the 10% mitigation, but I'm comparing to SCHs Seraph and ASTs Neutral and they both feel powerful and you can see the results.

WHM I feel like I just popped Largresse. Nothing special, no one notices. It's not weak, I'm sure it has power behind it. But it doesn't FEEL strong.

[Billythepancake]

I know WHM is doing really good right now, but I do want to kind of bring up how lacking wings feels. Maybe it's because I can't actually SEE the 10% mitigation, but I'm comparing to SCHs Seraph and ASTs Neutral and they both feel powerful and you can see the results.

WHM I feel like I just popped Largresse. Nothing special, no one notices. It's not weak, I'm sure it has power behind it. But it doesn't FEEL strong.

I'll be honest, maybe I'm using it wrong, but I don't really feel seraph, she just comes of as rouse to me. The 2 free succors are nice I suppose, but hardly ever needed.

[IttyBitty]

I know WHM is doing really good right now, but I do want to kind of bring up how lacking wings feels.

Temperance is visually lazy. I hate it so much. Give me actual wings, not a recoloured and resized magicked prism effect. What it does is okay but nobody really notices when the wings come out.

WHM feels a bit clunky. I wish you'd be able to weave spells better.

WHM has too many skills to weave with (and 3 of them are conditional on lilies) and not enough things to actually weave often enough. So you constantly feel like you're stopping and starting. It's one of my main issues with current WHM.

[Mhaeric]

Temperance is visually lazy. I hate it so much. Give me actual wings, not a recoloured and resized magicked prism effect. What it does is okay but nobody really notices when the wings come out.

Scholars with fairy envy do.

That visual is what Dissipation should have received, tbh. We're absorbing Eos/Selene's essence into ourselves for a time, so giving us wings then would have been perfect.