Proposed Samurai Adjustments/Fixes

[Duskane]

Tsubame shorter CD and kaiten gives a meditate stack
What I want but only expect pot buffs

No cast on midaire the sequel is nice

[Tatsemaru]

Dark arts spaming and shinten spaming is like talking about the source and the first.

People hated DA spaming due to the sheer mp cost for syphonstrike, carve and spit etc..so you dont messed up and used 1 DA, and boom you get hit in the face with a tank buster without TBN. Thats why they were dubbed the "Dark-arts knight"

Now, as for shinten, the old hagakure would let you remove 3 sen to either a) hissatsu guren, b)reset your sen..or c) keep the flow going until next burst.

So for those hating the old Hagakure, they dont understand the job. Simple as it was, the flow of sam rotation made me fall in love with the job (personally) the options of 1 midare or 4 shinten spam was better/ is better then the constant midare bot like feeling.

Shoha, alltho nice animation and fancy that we can use meditate for other stuff then kenki..free potency..imo, that particular skill is a joke at lvl 80. How many sam can actually say they used that skill more then 3 times in a fight (in serious gameplay)?

The tsubame at 60 seconds and meikyo at 55seconds honestly feels like a joke. Its basically baiting people to perform even worst - but hey, at least its 55 seconds right?

Im not going to full on hate the current sam job, i just think dev should be using time with each jobs (that includes ast nin smn list continue)

Cos playing a job at a spesific sks just to align gcd with ogcd on group burst feels awkword.

But by all means buff monk more. They need more buff should they want to solo next tier contents

[Quor]

What I miss about Haga is the longer term strategic play that it brought to SAM as a class. You wanted to keep it on cooldown, but not always immediately. Maybe it was better to use it right away so it was ready again ASAP, but maybe you delayed it for a few GCD's to get another 20-40 kenki from it. Which was best depended on the situation, and you could selectively use it to enable mechanics to be dealt with easier (such as being forced onto a flank to dodge aoe and eating Ka so that you just run through your Kasha combo again).

What I don't miss about Haga is that - outside of raid bursts windows - you wanted to more or less keep it on cooldown. The gain almost always outweighed what you got from using Sen on anything but a Banana refresh, and even inside burst windows it wasn't always a clear cut win for Midare; sometimes you needed to be mobile, so Haga would win out since you could spam more Shinten's.
I like that Haga is back now, and it still has limited in-combat usage depending on your circumstances, but I also like not using Shinten so much. It's not a bad skill per se, it's just not very interesting. Push button, receive damage. Keep your kenki gauge above a certain level so you can use Kaiten as needed or Guren/Senei when they start to come off CD, and even that isn't a challenge now with Ikishoten lining up perfectly with Guren/Senei. So while Haga allowed an interesting style of play that I came to love with SAM, it also paradoxically imposed it's own dogma onto the class. You wanted it on CD as much as possible, and waiting more than 2-3 GCD's to put it on CD was pushing into lost dps territory.

There are other ways to increase SAM dps. I'm fine with Haga as it is now. It still has niche in-combat use, it's just not required to be used like it used to be. It's an option, not a requirement, and that's a good thing.

Specifically on the topic of boosting SAM dps, I like the idea of Kaeshi: Banana double up with normal Banana on an enemy, but you'd have to drop the CD of Kaeshi probably to 30s or else all you're going to use it on is Banana. SAM needs more overall options not less, and no, more Shinten spam is not an option it needs. I'd like to see more conditional stuff beyond the minor niche stuff current Haga brings. To be honest, I think the Kaeshi's are an untapped option. I'd love to see a 30s CD on Tsubame-Gaeshi with each different Kaeshi granting SAM a personal buff of some sort. Kaeshi: Goken could add a 15s buff that increases the potency of all aoe skills by 10%. Kaeshi: Higanbana could cause the SAM to deal an additional X amount of potency for every AA and weaponskill used on the target for the duration, maybe something small like 10 or 15. Kaeshi: Setsugekka could grant three charges that increase the damage of the next kenki spenders by 25%. These are all obviously just suggestions and ideas, but I'm sure everyone gets the gist; let's add something personal and defining to what's arguably the best SAM skill added in this xpac. Something unique that has a noticeable effect but also introduces a measure of decision making that goes beyond "use this on cooldown."

[Shurrikhan]

It [Hagakure] still has niche in-combat use.

It doesn't outside of very poor play, though. Not at over a 400 potency loss.

EDIT: also drop the snark. SAM wasnt a high APM job last expansion, and its roughly the same now.

It was if you played at the 2.9k+ SkS Haga breakpoint... Guess what else isn't an option from which to gain playflow depth anymore?

[Lersayil]

Well first, you wouldn't do ikkishoten and old haga together because you'll over fill unless they nerf ikkishoten, so that's a pretty silly point. Nobody in their right mind would do that....60+50.
Unless I'm reading it wrong.

Shinten does make samurai active what?? you have to press it every gcd/or other gcd while making sure you always enough kenki for kaiten for midare, bana and your big burst kenki attack. So there is your interactive as well. It affects your kenki gauge, hagakure also add some interactive since that's what it seems you want.

If you don't mind high APM jobs why does it feel like you're fighting to NOT have hagakure back.

Its and extra button but so what? that extra button makes the job busy and engaging. Honestly, if you rather just flow through your rotaton without pressing anything else, not to be rude but play dragoon.

You could stack Ikkishoten and Hagakure AFTER burning enough Kenki so it wouldn't overcap, thus creating a theoretical burst window of 60+50+ whatever Kenki you've hoarded before. Thats somwhere between 4-7 Shintens back to back, minus a Kaiten if an Iaijitsu needs it.

And no, one button does not an interesting rotation maketh. Just ask most of the SB DRK's how they liked spamming Dark Arts.

Dont get me wrong, I liked Hagakure mixing up the Sen and Kenki generation, but with the current iteration of Ikkishoten and Tsubame Gaeshi, I don't think that giving us back the old Hagakure (and thus more Shintens) is a good solution.

If anything, I think we need more Kenki spenders (or lower cooldown on Senei) so its not as simple as: Save enough for Senei / Kaiten occasionally -> dump everything else into Shinten (occasionally Seigan if you're feeling spicy).

That or something that shakes up the GCD flow, but preferably without giving us more Shintens.

EDIT: also drop the snark. SAM wasnt a high APM job last expansion, and its roughly the same now. The only thing we've lost is the Hagakure interraction with Sen. You are the one advocating to change the job for higher APM. I just want some of the variation back in my rotation as its currently a bit too one note for my taste.

[xxvaynxx]

You could stack Ikkishoten and Hagakure AFTER burning enough Kenki so it wouldn\\\\'t overcap

Well of course if you do Ikki after burning a bit of kenki. That wasn't what I was talking about but I'll ignore that.

Shinten is no where near as bad as dark arts for the sole fact samurai GCD is naturally faster not making it as much as a pain, why you think no real samurai player complained about it?
Because it feels good to use, it\\\\'s quick and it's great seeing those big numbers and keeps up your DPS. If you think otherwise well I don't know what to tell you.

And the part about samurai not being high apm, that just tells me you either never played samurai seriously or just occasionally played it.
Back in sigma samurai was very much a high apm job. Because bis was sks but you know the beauty of samurai thanks to hagakura? Samurai could flex from being a ultra fast job to a bursty slow crt samurai.

Haga wasn't just about gaining your kenki and mixing up your sen?

I don't get that. At what point would you want to use it other than at 3 sen? The times you use it at 2 sen was far and few between in the middle of a fight . Only few times to use it at two sen was your opener and reopener and a long phase change and I guess some air situations...either way, it added flexibility and made the job smooth so everything flow if you played it right. So I'm not advocating anything.I played this job all through SB and seriously at that, not just playing it in a dgn or ex Primals.

5.x samurai lost all that beautiful design now it's just a generic melee. Pretty much a dragoon.

Sorry for the snark, I just feel any samurai that doesn't like haga or doesn't want it back wasn't a full time samurai or a very good one or understand why samurai was so beautifully designed. ((Balance wise it was crap, just like now lol))

[xxvaynxx]

What I miss about Haga is the longer term strategic play that it brought to SAM as a class. You wanted to keep it on cooldown, but not always immediately. Maybe it was better to use it right away so it was ready again ASAP, but maybe you delayed it for a few GCD's to get another 20-40 kenki from it. Which was best depended on the situation, and you could selectively use it to enable mechanics to be dealt with easier (such as being forced onto a flank to dodge aoe and eating Ka so that you just run through your Kasha combo again).

What I don't miss about Haga is that - outside of raid bursts windows - you wanted to more or less keep it on cooldown. The gain almost always outweighed what you got from using Sen on anything but a Banana refresh, and even inside burst windows it wasn't always a clear cut win for Midare; sometimes you needed to be mobile, so Haga would win out since you could spam more Shinten's.
I like that Haga is back now, and it still has limited in-combat usage depending on your circumstances, but I also like not using Shinten so much. It's not a bad skill per se, it's just not very interesting. Push button, receive damage. Keep your kenki gauge above a certain level so you can use Kaiten as needed or Guren/Senei when they start to come off CD, and even that isn't a challenge now with Ikishoten lining up perfectly with Guren/Senei. So while Haga allowed an interesting style of play that I came to love with SAM, it also paradoxically imposed it's own dogma onto the class. You wanted it on CD as much as possible, and waiting more than 2-3 GCD's to put it on CD was pushing into lost dps territory.

There are other ways to increase SAM dps. I'm fine with Haga as it is now. It still has niche in-combat use, it's just not required to be used like it used to be. It's an option, not a requirement, and that's a good thing

Mmm you're looking at haga a bit too deeply. Allow me to correct a few things.
Firstly, haga is mainly only used for 3 or 2 depending on your situation but it's very situational for 2 sen. You never want to eat it just for one sen. That's a pure DPS lost, you might as we just overwrite your sen.

Another thing is midare was actually better to use over haga shinten spam under Trick attack due to you most likely not being able to dump it all under the trick window.

You really don't want to delay your haga, you should just be ready for it. Have your kenki ready to not overfill.
Only time you delay it is if youre waiting to sync it with meikyo or you used midare to hit trick attack.
Other than that you just use it on cooldown really.
Unless boss about to die from a few hits lol.

[Tatsemaru]

As Sam player, i enjoyed the Shinten cycle bewteen gcd.
As Drk player, i enjoyed the dark arts cycle between gcd.

my personal opinion (it dont matter if it triggers people saying this) if pressing 1 button between gcd is too much to handle, it's no wonder why shb jobs are super dumb to play with no flex or flow and doesn't reward player skill (looking at Ninjas).
the "dark arts" (alltho nothing compared to the Shinten we were talking about) has 1 thing in common with Shinten, and that is, if your not paying attention and over spent, you f'ed yourself over. take it like a champ and learn from it.

It's understandable that some people prefer NOT spaming shinten due to latency, cronic tunnle vision, amnesia - forgeting when to stop spending kenki for that kaiten that allways seams to come 3 gcd's too early..am i right? i know every sam had accidentally overspent kenki once or twice? dont even deny...

The point problem with Sam at its core right now, is
1) the lvl 80 skill being a joke. buffing their potency on the first 4 ticks like any sam is going to be "hold on i'll go meditate for 45 seconds, but when im back..your gonna feel the wrath of this midare shoha combo"
2) the 55 seconds meikyo vs the 60 second kaeshi
3) the obvious dps compared to drg/mnks with raid utility and it's magical counterpart, the blm
4) the clunky rotation that forces you to either a) over use a yukikaze b) become a dragoon litterally c) loose 400 potency with the new "Hagakure"
5) Why did they even fix what wasn't broke with Hagakure? (half the sam that had the tunnle vision and amnesia issues will argue no.5 but it's their opinion)

My only question to the Dev team is, do they even PLAY the job?

[Lersayil]

And the part about samurai not being high apm, that just tells me you either never played samurai seriously or just occasionally played it.
Back in sigma samurai was very much a high apm job. Because bis was sks but you know the beauty of samurai thanks to hagakura? Samurai could flex from being a ultra fast job to a bursty slow crt samurai.

Trying to find hard data on this, but I don't recall SAM being particularly high APM compared to a NIN or BRD (MNK?). And yes, I was running SkS melds almost the whole of SB. And its most definitely not higher APM than a SMN or NIN current expansion.

EDIT: looking at the Omega clears on 90+ percentiles SAM avaraged around 40 CPM, BRD 46 CPM, NIN 45 CPM, MNK 44 CPM.

my personal opinion (it dont matter if it triggers people saying this) if pressing 1 button between gcd is too much to handle, it's no wonder why shb jobs are super dumb to play with no flex or flow and doesn't reward player skill (looking at Ninjas).
the "dark arts" (alltho nothing compared to the Shinten we were talking about) has 1 thing in common with Shinten, and that is, if your not paying attention and over spent, you f'ed yourself over. take it like a champ and learn from it.

It's understandable that some people prefer NOT spaming shinten due to latency, cronic tunnle vision, amnesia - forgeting when to stop spending kenki for that kaiten that allways seams to come 3 gcd's too early..am i right? i know every sam had accidentally overspent kenki once or twice? dont even deny...

It also has another thing in common: its a one button resource dump, between GCDs, giving you a flat potency bonus.

And the reason I don't like it is not due to the "effort" it requires. Its a kenki dump. Pressing one button over and over and over again with minimal thought put into it is just plain old boring to me (hence the comparison to DRK).

Currently I have no issue with the amount of Shintens. Sure, if you save up a few for a burst phase its slightly tedious, but not unbearable. I just don't want more of it. Surely they can come up with more imaginative mechanics for the class than "press Shinten moAr".

[xxvaynxx]

Trying to find hard data on this, but I don't recall SAM being particularly high APM compared to a NIN or BRD (MNK?). And yes, I was running SkS melds almost the whole of SB. And its most definitely not higher APM than a SMN or NIN current expansion.

EDIT: looking at the Omega clears on 90+ percentiles SAM avaraged around 35 CPM, BRD 46 CPM, NIN 45 CPM, MNK 44 CPM.




It also has another thing in common: its a one button resource dump, between GCDs, giving you a flat potency bonus.

And the reason I don't like it is not due to the "effort" it requires. Its a kenki dump. Pressing one button over and over and over again with minimal thought put into it is just plain old boring to me (hence the comparison to DRK).

Currently I have no issue with the amount of Shintens. Sure, if you save up a few for a burst phase its slightly tedious, but not unbearable. I just don't want more of it. Surely they can come up with more imaginative mechanics for the class than "press Shinten moAr".

Well if you compare to jobs like nin and brd ofc it not going to be THAT high, more so smn. I never SAID samurai was higher than other jobs. I just said it had a high APM. Don't really need to find data to know that.
Though with bard its sorta shifts due to not always getting procs, same with mnk.

You also have to keep in mind in alpha, the bis changed from sks to crt. It was only in sigma where bis was sks, I'm not going to go look through all that to prove a point though to see their cpm.

So you running SkS all through SB is kinda weird and kinda proves my point you wasn't fully invested into samurai if you wasn't following the bis to get the maximum amount of dps you could get.
Like...show me your parses as a samurai. Show me you actually knew how to play the job well.

Because you'll know how important hagakure is in fights and why the current samurai is kinda a pain due to things not lining up and downtime hurting now.

So far you're complaining is you don't want to use shinten more even though you keep saying you don't mind it.

If you don't want to spam shinten, whats your idea how to bring back fluidity to samurai? you gave no idea's other than you don't want to spam shinten which isn't even hard to do.