DPS and their Utilities

[TaiyouSeishin]

No matter what game you play, balance will ALWAYS be a source for debate. "Who does more damage here? Why? Why doesnt x-class do just as much?" Often time a class is often broken for you (the one who plays it, See: Maining) and OP to some (who "play" it, see: alt class).... or OP to people who have to deal with you in pvp (though pve and pvp is sperate here)

In this game there aeems to be debate about how classes are balanced based around their utility, and honestly, balancing around that is rather difficult. Sometimes utility can be too strong, sometimes not strong enough, this has to do with the TYPE of utility it is. So before anyone goes "Aww, NIN isnt meta anymore, but its now more in line" lets see exactly how in line it really is.

First lets knock out the ranged vs melee bit. Personally, i have never seen an mmo lower the dps of a class just because of "higher mobility" before this one. And personally, i dont think it should be. Also, the only reason why ppl compare classes "in a vacuum" is because for things like titania ex, you are not gonna run 4 melee dps. This means there are two slots for ranged, and nin isnt gonna be competeing with you for them.

Now utility:
1. Heal support utility (healing, heal buffing.)
2. Defense support utility (damage mitigation type)
3. Dps utility
(I would count a raise as heal support, because this way a healer doesnt have to use a CD or mana to do the raise)

It goes without saying that the more utility you have, you should do less dps. But the dps differenfe needs to be small enough that it is worth taking you for the utility, otherwise, it will default to top dps. If the only utility you have is heal/defensive, you should do less, but not so much the utility isnt worth it.

Dps utility is the HARDEST to balance around. By definition, it is supposed yo increase someones dps (individual or group) but this only works if it ACTUALLY provides this benefit.

This means, that a group will understand you doing less dps, because with your utility (provided they work with it) they should end up doing more. If you include pdps + contribution to = less than your other counterparts... the utility is useless. It may increase their pdps, but the raids over all dps is now less. It makes sense for having utility pdps is lower, but the dps utility if properly used should do MORE thab make up for it. This is why its hard, unlike other utility types, this one is meant to increase dps despite the fact that as a utility it should personally do less.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Unlike non dps utility, that can just do less and thats the end (rn i think things like smn and rdm need some buffing despite the raise and healing capabilities) dps ones need more work done with them. They should not provide so much rdps that it over shadows the pure pdps or other high rdps, but should still have a benefit. If it breaks even, why would anyone bring a class to take a dps loss, for the chance (if they work with it, making everyones job harder) of just doing the same or less?

[Marc-Vigar]

Ok you explained utility vs selfish so what's the purpose of the thread?

[HyperiusUltima]

Unlike non dps utility, that can just do less and thats the end (rn i think things like smn and rdm need some buffing despite the raise and healing capabilities) dps ones need more work done with them. They should not provide so much rdps that it over shadows the pure pdps or other high rdps, but should still have a benefit. If it breaks even, why would anyone bring a class to take a dps loss, for the chance (if they work with it, making everyones job harder) of just doing the same or less?

Because by doing so you're letting that player actually play a job they like. I know that some people have been pushy at times about wanting Melee to turn reroll into MNK/DRG when they've taken a lot of time in SAM, but the general realization needs to be that people shouldn't focus so heavily on numbers alone as long as the person can play their class to the best of its ability. That's what Savage will show if people are capable.

The bad thing about balancing DPS jobs in general is that you have to be careful to not make things too close. If you really wanted perfect balance, then the rDPS of one job would be accounted with the pDPS of the same job based on what it provides.

DRG is an example of this, though currently they are overtuned with how much damage they do vs. a job that doesn't provide any rDPS at all(SAM). Same goes for NIN and it's very low potencies on its attacks and abilities that don't make up for the rDPS they bring. SE has some gaps to fill, but we'll have to just keep feeding them feedback til' they do.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Ok you explained utility vs selfish so what's the purpose of the thread?

There are a number of times when people go "but utility so its fine" and ppl complain that ppl complain.

"I think smn should at least be a little closer in damage than what they are" "better lose or share that raise then"

^dislike when ppl do those. And rn there is a dislike for some classes even HAVING utility.

And purpose of any thread is to inform, discuss, debate. So if anyone disagrees, agrees, has their own opinion...

[TaiyouSeishin]

Because by doing so you're letting that player actually play a job they like. I know that some people have been pushy at times about wanting Melee to turn reroll into MNK/DRG when they've taken a lot of time in SAM, but the general realization needs to be that people shouldn't focus so heavily on numbers alone as long as the person can play their class to the best of its ability. That's what Savage will show if people are capable.

The bad thing about balancing DPS jobs in general is that you have to be careful to not make things too close. If you really wanted perfect balance, then the rDPS of one job would be accounted with the pDPS of the same job based on what it provides.

DRG is an example of this, though currently they are overtuned with how much damage they do vs. a job that doesn't provide any rDPS at all(SAM). Same goes for NIN and it's very low potencies on its attacks and abilities that don't make up for the rDPS they bring. SE has some gaps to fill, but we'll have to just keep feeding them feedback til' they do.

But thats not how it works. Why should everyone else, work MORE, just so you can bring what you want. Sure your friends wont mind and if thats all you play with then you have no issies. But you are still making their job harder, without pay off. At this point if you REALLY want people to play what class they want, then we can get rid of all utility, normallize all dps and attack speed values so all melee do the exact same as each other. Boom, you can play what you want.

Do the same for ranged/casters

[Marc-Vigar]

There are a number of times when people go "but utility so its fine" and ppl complain that ppl complain.

"I think smn should at least be a little closer in damage than what they are" "better lose or share that raise then"

^dislike when ppl do those. And rn there is a dislike for some classes even HAVING utility.

And purpose of any thread is to inform, discuss, debate. So if anyone disagrees, agrees, has their own opinion...

Well it's really simple, if all classes had high damage and no utility then they would be the same and the game would be boring. Variety is healthy.

When people complain about having utility it's not because they don't like it, it's because numerically or mechanically they feel like their class is not performing well. For example you have NIN, which was a more support oriented DPS but SE removed the entire toolkit except for Trick Attack, so NIN players feel their utility is weaker (which actually is) and their damage hasn't been upgraded accordingly.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Well it's really simple, if all classes had high damage and no utility then they would be the same and the game would be boring. Variety is healthy.

When people complain about having utility it's not because they don't like it, it's because numerically or mechanically they feel like their class is not performing well. For example you have NIN, which was a more support oriented DPS but SE removed the entire toolkit except for Trick Attack, so NIN players feel their utility is weaker (which actually is) and their damage hasn't been upgraded accordingly.

Precisely. the only purpose of this thread is to show that "having utility" doesnt make it ok. (Most go "nah its fine")
I am by no means on the "get rid of utility" bandwagon. I dont even want TA gone off nin. But aime dont understand why NINs are unhappy thinking "you just arent meta anymore"

Honestly, id like to see some utilities come back... like for brd... it feels like ranger now...

[Marianno]

I think people should play what they want. This is why PF was created. Make your own party and do it that way or play with an FC. When BLM was being shafted in HW/SB(beginning) I just made my own party in the PF and played with FC mates. I got to experience the raids but never had the chance to finish like I wanted as a result. But for me, it was enough to at least give it a go. I’m not hardcore player. I say all this too say that SE needs to either make the utility more potent or make it so some jobs have the correct potency buffs across the board to compensate for what was taken. In the case of SMN, it has three different utility spells and so does RDM. Buffing then too much would make BLM pointless to bring. They need to be brought up but SE seems to have a heavy-handed track record of overdoing it. However, the take away is that SMN/RDM should not be close to BLM due to their utility spells but their utilities should be a bit more potent with minor CD reduction usage to compensate. After all that then look to minor potency buffs.

[Kabooa]

Hi. I'm the guy that says "lose or share" the raise.

If you have one DPS that does 12,000 DPS and -can't raise- and you have another DPS that does 12,000 DPS -and can raise-, which DPS is objectively better?

Lets say Dragoon could raise.

Lets say Bard could raise (lol 2.X limit break).

Lets say Paladin could raise.

What is an acceptable DPS margin to justify -not having it- while others -do-?

I'll give you a hint. It's pretty close to the one we have now with Black mage.