DPS and their Utilities

[Laur1x]

I just want them to remove TA.

[Connor]

I feel like having variety in DPS is a good thing. It would be boring if every DPS was just the same thing in a different flavour. Having stuff like a pure DPS job, a support oriented job, ones with high mobility but lower DPS, jobs that can support other roles like Summoner/Red Mage. It means that’s there’s a playstyle for ever type of player, which I don’t think can ever be a bad thing. Even if it does make balancing more difficult

[TaiyouSeishin]

Hi. I'm the guy that says "lose or share" the raise.

In which i agree with a smn not being EQUAL to blm. But more often than not the gap is way higher than it should be. A smn raise is not worth the loss of dps by sheer number.

If a smn/rdm was a bit more useful WITH its utility. Like being able to heal like it means something, raise not chunking its ability to dps, etc. There has to be a give and take. Be less than blm? Of course.. most just want the gap to be less... not do the EXACT same... cuz that wouldnt make sense, its not like the o ly utility they have is a dps one.

Edited... because mobile is dumb and deleting half the reply

[Zerathor]

A smn raise is not worth the loss of dps by sheer number.

Wrong. Do you really not understand how insanely useful a dps that can raise is? For progression, for trucking through party finder groups full of horrible players? The damage gap currently is exactly where it should be for once.

Utility has a price. If it didn't have a price, then jobs that have it would be overpowered by comparison to those that don't. As they were last expansion.

[Shurrikhan]

They should not provide so much rdps that it over shadows the pure pdps or other high rdps, but should still have a benefit.

At present there is a sort of tier's worth of contribution difference between the more "selfish" dps and the more rDPS-heavy. Guess which is providing far more value to their parties on average. (Hint: It's not the rDPS-heavy ones.)

Hi. I'm the guy that says "lose or share" the raise.

If you have one DPS that does 12,000 DPS and -can't raise- and you have another DPS that does 12,000 DPS -and can raise-, which DPS is objectively better?

What is an acceptable DPS margin to justify -not having it- while others -do-?

I'll give you a hint. It's pretty close to the one we have now with Black mage.

But that your example is far from realistic outside of early SB in movement-heavy fights. That's just not the case anymore. That or your example is purposely ignoring the gap we have now, which you mention only in your last line to the effect of it being somehow fine for a SMN to do almost 11% less tDPS (12% less pDPS) -- roughly 750k less damage over a 10-minute fight, at current gear levels in Savage content -- than BLM, so long as the SMN has Raise, which requires that the team has already suffered a massive loss to its damage rate potential to see any use at all?

I don't think that's the case. And I don't think the devs think that's the case, either. SMN and BLM were neck-and-neck for rDPS after the balance adjustments of Stormblood -- BLM faintly outperforming SMN except when said SMN was paired with a BLM from which to milk extra Contagion rDPS, at which point SMN took the faint lead. That was when balance had been finally put into a good place, with most jobs' rDPS at max performance each performing within a scant couple percent of each other in their ideal compositions. Now we vary by over 15%. Which do you think is the better indicator of the balance philosophy -- generally tight balance after having smoothed everything as much as reasonable over the expansion, or the first week of progression?

Raise is painfully overrated, imo, "useful" for progression except where progression should include building up muscle memory for ideal play, relying on loose DPS checks and less intuitive mechanics to see any significant value. And while I don't want to see resurrection made ubiquitous nor purge it from casters as a whole, I do not see the point in hitting jobs with nearly so hefty a "Rez tax" as we have now.

Demanding that Rez have such a huge performance burden -- rather than, say, just compensating BLM utility through such forms as its old Apocatastasis or Mana Wall, etc., with the numbers within a more reasonable 3% rDPS -- just builds towards a "Banned from Prog | Banned from Farm" schism. We don't need that.

[Dortharl]

This game has already lost so much complexity and so many things have been removed in the name of perceived fairness and ease of access and now we have people calling for more harmonisation I genuinely hope ninjas don’t loose TA and become Samurai’s with different weapons. I would understand more if this wasn’t something that hasn’t been with the job since their earliest iterations, but many chose these support style DPS jobs and now want support removed.

Yes the tax needs to be reworked so that the rDps is more balanced but removing utility is a terrible solution and robs the game of what little complexity remains.

[SaberMaxwell]

Hi. I'm the guy that says "lose or share" the raise.

If you have one DPS that does 12,000 DPS and -can't raise- and you have another DPS that does 12,000 DPS -and can raise-, which DPS is objectively better?

Lets say Dragoon could raise.

Lets say Bard could raise (lol 2.X limit break).

Lets say Paladin could raise.

What is an acceptable DPS margin to justify -not having it- while others -do-?

I'll give you a hint. It's pretty close to the one we have now with Black mage.

I'll gladly delete Raise off of Casters! When does it hit the road?

[TaiyouSeishin]

This game has already lost so much complexity and so many things have been removed in the name of perceived fairness and ease of access and now we have people calling for more harmonisation I genuinely hope ninjas don’t loose TA and become Samurai’s with different weapons. I would understand more if this wasn’t something that hasn’t been with the job since their earliest iterations, but many chose these support style DPS jobs and now want support removed.

Yes the tax needs to be reworked so that the rDps is more balanced but removing utility is a terrible solution and robs the game of what little complexity remains.

Honestly i dont want it removed either, just needs to be worth the lack of damage. The playstyle is complex which i like, but its like now nin has the worst of both worlds, complexity without pay off, and utility that essentially has no effect, cept the utility tax.

Edit: cuz mobile

[Tulzscha]

The only problem I have with a “rez tax” is when your group progresses to the point it no longer needs many raises but is falling short of the dps check. Paying for something that’s not needed kinda sucks. Maybe if it was like an optional role action that could be exchanged with a heal or buff or something else useful.

[Kabooa]

At present there is a sort of tier's worth of contribution difference between the more "selfish" dps and the more rDPS-heavy. Guess which is providing far more value to their parties on average. (Hint: It's not the rDPS-heavy ones.)



But that your example is far from realistic outside of early SB in movement-heavy fights. That's just not the case anymore. That or your example is purposely ignoring the gap we have now, which you mention only in your last line to the effect of it being somehow fine for a SMN to do almost 11% less tDPS (12% less pDPS) -- roughly 750k less damage over a 10-minute fight, at current gear levels in Savage content -- than BLM, so long as the SMN has Raise, which requires that the team has already suffered a massive loss to its damage rate potential to see any use at all?

I don't think that's the case. And I don't think the devs think that's the case, either. SMN and BLM were neck-and-neck for rDPS after the balance adjustments of Stormblood -- BLM faintly outperforming SMN except when said SMN was paired with a BLM from which to milk extra Contagion rDPS, at which point SMN took the faint lead. That was when balance had been finally put into a good place, with most jobs' rDPS at max performance each performing within a scant couple percent of each other in their ideal compositions. Now we vary by over 15%. Which do you think is the better indicator of the balance philosophy -- generally tight balance after having smoothed everything as much as reasonable over the expansion, or the first week of progression?

Raise is painfully overrated, imo, "useful" for progression except where progression should include building up muscle memory for ideal play, relying on loose DPS checks and less intuitive mechanics to see any significant value. And while I don't want to see resurrection made ubiquitous nor purge it from casters as a whole, I do not see the point in hitting jobs with nearly so hefty a "Rez tax" as we have now.

Demanding that Rez have such a huge performance burden -- rather than, say, just compensating BLM utility through such forms as its old Apocatastasis or Mana Wall, etc., with the numbers within a more reasonable 3% rDPS -- just builds towards a "Banned from Prog | Banned from Farm" schism. We don't need that.

So either put Raise in the role action menu, -or get rid of it entirely-.

My stance on this hasn't changed. It's that polarizing of a utility, because you either don't need it, -or you do-. If the difference between Summoner and Black Mage is 5%, you're back to just grabbing the Summoner full time.

Why not?

You literally have lost nothing worthwhile for the extra safety and consistency another source of Raise provides you.