Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.

[RareItems]

Survivability is also heavily dictated by cooldown management. If a fight (say a dungeon pull where you’re always taking a lot of damage rather than a raid boss where it’s discrete spikes) takes 20 seconds longer because of poor DPS, that 20 seconds runs the risk of being after you’ve run out of cooldowns. If you’re down 20 or 30% mitigation because of that, your healer is definitely going to notice. It’s better to just put the mobs down quickly before your resources are exhausted.

A Tank with Tenacity melds don't even need cooldowns.

Take for example Titan on Eden Normal floor 4. He has a nasty Tankbuster that gives a debuff. Did it 5 times today. His Tankbuster did about 10k dmg on me, sometimes zero, all i used was Sheltron and Rampart/Sentinel. Then on one of the rounds, we had a Warrior with Direct Hit Melds on and he just instapulled, so i just supported him. Even with Intervention, his HP still dropped down to 20k. Oh here's the funny part, i voked it since he looks like he's struggling and 1 of the healers died. And he vokes Titan back to him. He died the next Tankbuster lol. Sounds like someone saw the forums and decided to put Direct Hit for his melds lol.

People keep pushing Direct Hit for Tanks when it clearly only makes sense to use it for Clearing DPS checks on Raids. People with Direct Hit Melds are just trying to justify their melds saying its BiS for everything when it's clearly not.

[Barraind]

His Tankbuster did about 10k dmg on me, sometimes zero, all i used was Sheltron and Rampart/Sentinel.

.......................

so you had 48.8% DR from tank passive and cooldowns.

Your tenacity was 4% damage reduction.


4%.

That is 1.9% more mitigation than taking the "I want to do 4% more damage" option.

Totally worth it, that wasnt.

[RareItems]

.......................

so you had 48.8% DR from tank passive and cooldowns.

Your tenacity was 4% damage reduction.


4%.

That is 1.9% more mitigation than taking the "I want to do 4% more damage" option.

Totally worth it, that wasnt.

Sorry, i forgot, Direct Hit Melded Tanks don't know how to use cooldowns and die, just like that Warrior lol. All they care about is doing as much damage as they can to make those Direct Hit melds worth it. They don't care about the healer having to babysit them and dying because of it.

SquareEnix should change Direct Hit to only affect jobs that fulfill a DPS role lol to make it easier for these guys. Edit: I just submitted a suggestion to change Direct Hit to only affect DPS jobs. Hope SE Listens so ppl would stop wasting gil on materia not intended for that job role lol.

[Nihility]

As someone that field tested tenacity just to make sure I'd say at this point I'd have more respect for a tank with empty slots than one with heavy tenacity melds
I want to like the stat but it may as well do nothing

As small a boost as dps melds are if it gets your group to a point where your pushing phases it's doing infinitely more damage reduction than tenacity ever could

Same with aoe, if your killing off the smaller mobs one or two gcd sooner. Immediately more damage reduction than tenacity will ever provide

keep in mind you all are talking about a game when actual tank stances were available they weren't even used for tank busters the damage was so much more valuable. If 20% didn't make a difference why would 4%?

[RareItems]

Tenacity = 33 per 0.1% DPS, HPS, and Damage Reduction

Direct Hit = 6 per 0.1% chance / 24 per 0.1% DPS Gain

If a tank melded only Direct Hit on the ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 2780 Direct Hit meaning he would gain a 46.3% chance to deal 11.5% Damage increase.

The fact that Direct hit doesn't even give you a 50% chance to deal its 11.5% damage increase while Tenacity gives 9.7% damage increase/Dmg Mitiagation and HPS 100% of the time, makes Tenacity better.


46.3% chance of dealing 11.5% more damage vs 100% chance of dealing 9.7% damage increase / Damage Mitigation / Self healing + Crit/Skillspeed/Det.

Doesn't take a genius which one is better for a class that takes the most damage and is expected to survive hard hitting moves.

If i queue up as a Healer on Expert Roullete and i see a Tank with DH meld on i just get my finger on top of the Adlo button already. If its Tenacity/Det/Crit then my finger is going to be on the Art of War button. If its no melds at all i just unpause youtube on my 2nd screen.

[Granyala]

Still doesn't change the fact that Tenacity > Direct Hit for tanks unless for some reason you really need that extra dps to meet DPS checks.

Let me chip in as a healer here for a moment:
I will NOT notice any single digit improvement to your mitigation in a savage raid. Tank damage is generally very spiky, enforcing cooldowns or you will eat dirt.
I will have to heal you back up after everyone. You taking 2K less damage won't change the # of heals I'll have to cast, not even over several minutes.

In order for me to notice single digit improvements to your mitigation, you need to take gradual/constant damage. That's where the "tank drops 5% slower" = "I get another GCD freed up" comes in. An example of that would be a wall-to-wall pull in a dungeon.

To be perfectly frank: tenacity is simply too weak to be interesting for raid tanks and since raids have rather nasty enrage timers, I can understand every tank opting for more DPS over survivability that, due to the nature of savage, won't help them or me.

BTW: I don't enjoy melding damage stats on my tank either. I'd wish there was a stat I could meld that makes me tankier AND be a community accepted choice. SE really did drop the ball AGAIN. My lil' Dork has the freedom to meld tenacity, because all he ever gets to see are dungeons anyway but other tanks have to conform or risk getting grief over it.

46.3% chance of dealing 11.5% more damage vs 100% chance of dealing 9.7% damage increase / Damage Mitigation / Self healing + Crit/Skillspeed/Det.

IIRC a direct hit is [normal hit * 1.25] a.k.a. 25% higher than a normal hit.

Napkin math puts DHit in front of tenacity by around 1.7%

Calculated for a 10 minute fight, a hit every 1.5 seconds (400 hits) with an arbitrary damage of 1000 for ease of calculus.
Eh change the 11.5 to a 25 in that image, forgot to edit the title but didn't save the document.

Tenacity is useful for improving your defensive capabilities while giving you some offensive boosts. Usually better when your doing content with Randoms.

I'd argue that for content with randoms (a.k.a. non savage/ultimate), the stat choice matters very, very little. If at all. Even ex primals have super generous enrages, basically: everyone does the mechanics right and no one dies -> boss goes down.

[RareItems]

Let me chip in as a healer here for a moment:
I will NOT notice any single digit improvement to your mitigation in a savage raid. Tank damage is generally very spiky, enforcing cooldowns or you will eat dirt.
I will have to heal you back up after everyone. You taking 2K less damage won't change the # of heals I'll have to cast, not even over several minutes.

In order for me to notice single digit improvements to your mitigation, you need to take gradual/constant damage. That's where the "tank drops 5% slower" = "I get another GCD freed up" comes in. An example of that would be a wall-to-wall pull in a dungeon.

To be perfectly frank: tenacity is simply too weak to be interesting for raid tanks and since raids have rather nasty enrage timers, I can understand every tank opting for more DPS over survivability that, due to the nature of savage, won't help them or me.

BTW: I don't enjoy melding damage stats on my tank either. I'd wish there was a stat I could meld that makes me tankier AND be a community accepted choice. SE really did drop the ball AGAIN. My lil' Dork has the freedom to meld tenacity, because all he ever gets to see are dungeons anyway but other tanks have to conform or risk getting grief over it.

Direct Hit is only useful for clearing content faster and meeting DPS checks. Usually with a static or FC mates.

Tenacity is useful for improving your defensive capabilities while giving you some offensive boosts. Usually better when your doing Casual content with Randoms. You don't really need any melds for doing casual content, so Tenacity is best since its a better than nothing stat and is extremely cheap at the MB.


All these ppl stacking Direct Hit, most of them have statics, so their healers have a comparable Ilvl and skill when doing content. Of course your not going to want to meld Tenacity for that setup.

[IttyBitty]

Dunning-Kruger operating in full force I see

[Nedkel]

Yes. I said that.
Every 700000 to 850000 pre-mitigation damage taken will save you exactly 1 heal.
Post mitigation, this will save you one heal every 17 heals used. At 700 potency.
Thats 700 potency you dont have to bother with every 11200 potency you're healing.
Best case scenario (for tenacity), thats one less heal you have to cast every 42 seconds.

And it does make difference, could affect the whole party performance with a healer being able to dish out one dps move. Its like a healer having additional extra 1400 spell speed reducing his gcd by 0.12 sec.
This is enough to make up for that 1-2% damage difference on a tank.
The thing becomes even more obvious in dungeons, where there is a constant source of high damage hitting a tank.

I'm actually assuming you will never be overhealing. If you ARE overhealing, tenacity becomes EVEN WORSE, as any damage taken between the time you are at full health and full health that would not have killed you is mitigation that could have instead been outgoing damage. I'm giving you the absolute BEST case for tenacity to show you how bad tenacity really is.
I'm assuming a healer is going to use their healing spells for heals. I'm assuming any heal that also does damage is going to be used for damage.
I'm assuming a healer is not using cure1 or the like to heal.

I think its a fair trade off.
DH is another RNG added to the equation, where tenacity is more of a team dependent stat which could be but dont have to be random.
Tenacity does bring some indirect (hehe) benefits to your tanking, comes with a little drawback and gives something else.

You may wonder why they havent changed this stat for 2 years and will probably not be changed in next 2. Devs clearly has some reasons for doing it.

[Taika]

And it does make difference, could affect the whole party performance with a healer being able to dish out one dps move. Its like a healer having additional extra 1400 spell speed reducing his gcd by 0.12 sec.
This is enough to make up for that 1-2% damage difference on a tank.
The thing becomes even more obvious in dungeons, where there is a constant source of high damage hitting a tank.

Please trust the healers when they say that whatever the tank has or hasn't melded won't affect their healing ability use in any content. What makes a difference is item level (defense and HP) and use of cooldowns. The healer will not be healing any more or less if their tank has full tenacity melds, full direct hit melds, or no melds at all, if the playstyle is otherwise the same.