The Nature of the WOL (Spoilers)

[Edax]

My impression was that the original race was Ascians, they were the "mankind" Varis spoke of.

I also never thought they renounced flesh, I thought they were aetheric beings to begin with and in the "shattered" worlds now need host bodies to be able to interact with mortal races. Either that or their mortal forms did die in the sundering but their souls survived intact.

Hence Lahabrea being a body hopper (spending most of ARR in a Thancred suit), Emet-Selch wanting to use a clone of his old vessel vs molding a new host into his own image and Elidibus is idk what. He wore a Zenos suit for a while.

When they appear, people might see a Hyur because they need to see something. They just see an approximation of what the Ascians actually look like, which would be why Ascians don't have a shadow.

I'm not saying I'm right about this, obviously, just offering my own interpretation.

Well, it was heavily implied in this scene that Ascian methods require the renunciation of the flesh. The price of immortality. Since supposedly Elidibus, Lahabrea and Emet-Selch were never sundered, it would explain why they do not appear as Ancients.

[Ayuhra]

This brings up an interesting conundrum.

The timeline goes something like this:
1. Calamity approaches!
2. Council summons Zodiark
3. Sacrifice half of the Ancients to bring the Calamity under control.
4. Sacrifice half of what's left to bring life back to the world.
5. Propose to sacrifice most of THAT life to bring back the original sacrifices.
6. Dissenters summon Hydaelyn to protect that life.
7. Hydaelyn Sunders the world.

There are many things about this timeline that make it quite likely that the myriad Spoken races all existed PRIOR to the Sundering. Would the Dissenters have taken such a drastic step if the life they were preserving was nothing more than trees and deer? It's POSSIBLE that they were environmental extremists of that sort, but I find it far more likely that this new life included new intelligent races - basically, the races we know, such as Kobolds, Hyur, Roegadyn, Sahagin, and so on and so forth. All of these races, then, existed PRIOR to the Sundering, and this is how they all wound up existing across all Thirteen Shards. Now, it could certainly be the Ascians' perspective that there was only One Race (that mattered) prior to the Sundering, and so they weren't LYING, exactly, when they told Varis of this.

Additionally, I do not believe that all intelligent life forms contain a piece of an Ancient's soul. The population of Ancients was decimated (first by the Calamity, then by the horrendous sacrifices to Zodiark), so it seems unlikely that there were enough Ancients to provide a soul fragment to every living person - and even if there were, what happens when that limit is eventually reached, and another baby is born? No, it seems more likely to me that the majority of people are "new life" of the sort created by Zodiark and protected by Hydaelyn. Souls in this system do not persist intact, but are instead dispersed into the Lifestream upon death and become the source for new souls. The Sundered souls of the Ancients exist within this system, but remain intact, occasionally being reborn into new bodies with no recollection of their prior lives.

I wonder if those who souls were Ascian once are the ones with the Echo? I mean we are originally led to believe Hydaelyn gave special souls the Echo but ALL Ascians have Echo.

[Alleo]

There are many things about this timeline that make it quite likely that the myriad Spoken races all existed PRIOR to the Sundering. Would the Dissenters have taken such a drastic step if the life they were preserving was nothing more than trees and deer? It's POSSIBLE that they were environmental extremists of that sort, but I find it far more likely that this new life included new intelligent races - basically, the races we know, such as Kobolds, Hyur, Roegadyn, Sahagin, and so on and so forth. All of these races, then, existed PRIOR to the Sundering, and this is how they all wound up existing across all Thirteen Shards. Now, it could certainly be the Ascians' perspective that there was only One Race (that mattered) prior to the Sundering, and so they weren't LYING, exactly, when they told Varis of this.

Additionally, I do not believe that all intelligent life forms contain a piece of an Ancient's soul. The population of Ancients was decimated (first by the Calamity, then by the horrendous sacrifices to Zodiark), so it seems unlikely that there were enough Ancients to provide a soul fragment to every living person - and even if there were, what happens when that limit is eventually reached, and another baby is born? No, it seems more likely to me that the majority of people are "new life" of the sort created by Zodiark and protected by Hydaelyn. Souls in this system do not persist intact, but are instead dispersed into the Lifestream upon death and become the source for new souls. The Sundered souls of the Ancients exist within this system, but remain intact, occasionally being reborn into new bodies with no recollection of their prior lives.

I agree (and I hope that we one day get an answer to that ingame) that either the other spoken races started to exist because Zodiark brought back new life (I doubt if they existed right next to the Ancient ones before that because Emet said that this was their perfect world) or maybe each Ancient one had their own form thus they could be the anchestors of each race. (Since they can imagine quite a bit of stuff, so maybe having to wear robes and masks was their way to also not be negative towards each others look?) So either they wanted to kill other sentient or even sapient life or maybe this would have included future Ancient ones too.

And I agree it also makes sense that not everyone would be an Ancient one if the other races existed at that time. But we should also not forget that death was not something that common to them (it still did happen but probably not that often and not of old age either) and yet they still had children. We simply dont know if there was some sort of lifestream before that, thus new souls getting born all the time, or if this was something which only happened afterwards.

I wonder if those who souls were Ascian once are the ones with the Echo? I mean we are originally led to believe Hydaelyn gave special souls the Echo but ALL Ascians have Echo.

I know its probably nitpicking but Ancients are not necessarily Ascians, while all Ascians are Ancient ones. The 14th for example was never an Ascian, because they left, thus only the 13 people of the council are Ascians, anyone else might be an Ancient one. But I also wonder if having the echo might mean that one could have been an Acient one. Maybe that is why Elidibus says that we would take their side if we knew the whole truth about the echo? That he believes that anyone that knows that the Ancient ones once existed would suddenly decide that mass genocide of whole worlds are fine?

But if those that possess the echo were all Ancient ones (and there are quite a few who have that) then it shows that the Ascians are really ready to kill even them to get their old ones back.

[RopeDrink]

Well, it was heavily implied in this scene that Ascian methods require the renunciation of the flesh. The price of immortality. Since supposedly Elidibus, Lahabrea and Emet-Selch were never sundered, it would explain why they do not appear as Ancients.

Above image refers to the ability for these regular peeps to teleport from a shard to the source, not that the Ascian's themselves underwent that same (or similar) process. Ascian's can teleport in this manner without any help, whereas Ar(d)bert explicitly mentions "how we came to this world", that it required their death. Not saying it is wrong, but I do not regard it as heavily implied at all (at least in terms of the Ascian's themselves). It's merely an explanation as to how the WoD's got here in the first place. You even see them in Elidibus' moon-office before their arrival, not something you'd expect to see from living bodies.

Until it is fully explained, I simply regard the Ascians as adopting more suitable forms over the eons. There's no reason for them to project themselves as overly lanky giants with plague doctor masks. It wouldn't be comprehendible now that they know we mere peons have no memory of the way we supposedly were before, just how things are now in our present.

[Edax]

Until it is fully explained, I simply regard the Ascians as adopting more suitable forms over the eons. There's no reason for them to project themselves as overly lanky giants with plague doctor masks. It wouldn't be comprehendible now that they know we mere peons have no memory of the way we supposedly were before, just how things are now in our present.

But why appear as Hyurs then? If being an Ancient would somehow be unacceptable, then why appear to the beast tribes as a Hyur? Shouldn't they appear as one of the beast races when convincing a beast race to summon primals?

[QT_Melon]

I agree (and I hope that we one day get an answer to that ingame) that either the other spoken races started to exist because Zodiark brought

I know its probably nitpicking but Ancients are not necessarily Ascians, while all Ascians are Ancient ones. The 14th for example was never an Ascian, because they left, thus only the 13 people of the council are Ascians, anyone else might be an Ancient one. But I also wonder if having the echo might mean that one could have been an Acient one. Maybe that is why Elidibus says that we would take their side if we knew the whole truth about the echo? That he believes that anyone that knows that the Ancient ones once existed would suddenly decide that mass genocide of whole worlds are fine?

Umm no? I believe Emet refers to his race as Ascian at least in direct dialog with the WoL, Emet was actually referring to his people that they all didn't think alike.

Looking for more but https://youtu.be/EBfCrns8-9I

Keep in mind at least for me, I do refer to them as "Ancients" to distinguish between the leftover Ascians and the fact that Amaurot is a place, not the name of the race which covered the whole planet.

[RopeDrink]

But why appear as Hyurs then? If being an Ancient would somehow be unacceptable, then why appear to the beast tribes as a Hyur? Shouldn't they appear as one of the beast races when convincing a beast race to summon primals?

Not so much unacceptable, just not practical for master manipulators. Considering there are various beastmen already communicating with other races (sometimes even integrating into their societies), I don't see much reason for them to waste energy to morph into beastmen to spread their summoning info when they have the means to instil fear through power and/or just hand them what they need to bring about their ambitions of faith. There is also the possibility that SE just didn't think this far ahead at the time, showing the Ascian's do it in their standard forms. Either way, I don't see it as being far fetched. The vast majority of their dealings would be with the humanoid races, with Hyur's being arguably the most common of them. The majority of summoning's have also been done by fanatical or desperate groups who would have taken promises of power no matter what shape was offering it, more-so if said-shape was an all-powerful Ascian that could just squash them.

There's also the fact that almost all Ascian's we directly fight always mention how they're being stifled by their human form, so flitting between Hyur to Beastman for such a simple purpose is equally less appealing.

[Alleo]

Umm no? I believe Emet refers to his race as Ascian at least in direct dialog with the WoL, Emet was actually referring to his people that they all didn't think alike.

Looking for more but https://youtu.be/EBfCrns8-9I

Keep in mind at least for me, I do refer to them as "Ancients" to distinguish between the leftover Ascians and the fact that Amaurot is a place, not the name of the race which covered the whole planet.

I cant make much with the video because I sadly dont speak japanese but I watched the scene in Kholusia in english and he calls them ancient ones there. And Hythlo calls them humanity in his japanese dialogue. (And I am quite sure that something similiar is also in the german version)

[Erendis]

Well since he/she knows that they are a shade and said as much, it makes more sense in the fact that if Hythlodaeus the shade referred to their real self as him or her. But like I said everything is still up in the air on it. I still am of the mind that we were Hythlodaues but I also know I could be wrong...

I read on reddit that they confirmed on Gamescom Q&A that WoL is not Hythlodeaus.

I hope someone is making a summary of Q&A...

[YianKutku]

I read on reddit that they confirmed on Gamescom Q&A that WoL is not Hythlodeaus.

I hope someone is making a summary of Q&A...

Can confirm. The context was asking whether the Amaurotines we saw actually looked like that, or if Emet-Selch was exaggerating. The answer was that they did look like that, and then Oda went on a tangent about how Hythlodaeus's model and the "rejoined WoL" model were different.

Also hoping for a summary or transcript, because the sound system they used for the panel had way too much noise, and I missed a lot of the answers.