Please Change Superbolide

[stanrir]

I was in a run where the whm used bene and right after the tank popped superbolid to just go straight back to 1 hp. The WHM got super salty and was like "don't ever use that CD around me again" lol it was funny

[Wistfulwaffle]

No the trade off is stupid and the design of the skill contradicts role design. I love how people here are trying to explain how the skill works like we are morons. We know exactly how it works and how to use it. It doesn’t change the fact that there is ALWAYS high opportunity cost using superbolide. With the other similar tank skills, if you didn’t actually end up needing to use it there is no extra impact on the tank or the healer. This is completely different with superbolide because it forces you to throw away any HP you might have at the time of use. This causes you to think twice before using it and causing compounded issues when you actually didn’t need to use it.

I have no issue if that is how they want to design all of the tank invulns, but you can’t claim superbolide is fine with such a disparity in cost to use versus the other tank skills.

You’re advocating the removal of invulnerability skills and now arguing how the skill contradicts role design. How exactly does it contradict role design? By not meeting your standards for healing? It does need to be explained to you, apparently. You shouldn’t be popping any invulnerability skill unless you’re at 20% of your max HP and feel there’s no other option. Holmgang and living dead would usually put me at 1HP because I used it to stay alive. It’s “forcing” you to throw away HP that would be lost anyway, ergo, the outcome is the same.

“If you didn’t actually end up needing to use it there’s no extra impact on the tank”

This sounds like a player issue, not a skill issue. Regardless, you have an impenetrable shield for 8 seconds that gives you more than enough cushion to throw in a heal or two. If that’s not enough for you there’s also aurora. If I pair that with superbolide, guess what? I’m not at 1hp anymore.

[Valic]

No the trade off is stupid and the design of the skill contradicts role design. I love how people here are trying to explain how the skill works like we are morons. We know exactly how it works and how to use it. It doesn’t change the fact that there is ALWAYS high opportunity cost using superbolide. With the other similar tank skills, if you didn’t actually end up needing to use it there is no extra impact on the tank or the healer. This is completely different with superbolide because it forces you to throw away any HP you might have at the time of use. This causes you to think twice before using it and causing compounded issues when you actually didn’t need to use it.

I have no issue if that is how they want to design all of the tank invulns, but you can’t claim superbolide is fine with such a disparity in cost to use versus the other tank skills.

If you know how it works then you shouldn't have any issues then. 4Head. Al of your complaints are how morons use it, not ow the skill itself works. Again, it's not a high oppurtunity cost if you use it at a low hp value that would have you killed anyways. In the end of all of these minus Paladin, you're gonna be healing the tank regardless of them being unable to go beyond 1 hp, being invincible with 1 hp, or living deaded. So your complaints so far are invalid unless you realize it's down to the player, not the skill. The post above me gets it, most of the people in this thread get it, you're just whining about another unnecessary change.

[Ladon]

Living Dead would like a word with you.

Living dead has no impact of use. If you use it and you don’t trigger walking dead, you lose nothing and don’t create additional work for a healer and healers don’t lose heals.

You’re advocating the removal of invulnerability skills and now arguing how the skill contradicts role design. How exactly does it contradict role design? By not meeting your standards for healing? It does need to be explained to you, apparently. You shouldn’t be popping any invulnerability skill unless you’re at 20% of your max HP and feel there’s no other option. Holmgang and living dead would usually put me at 1HP because I used it to stay alive. It’s “forcing” you to throw away HP that would be lost anyway, ergo, the outcome is the same.

“If you didn’t actually end up needing to use it there’s no extra impact on the tank”

This sounds like a player issue, not a skill issue. Regardless, you have an impenetrable shield for 8 seconds that gives you more than enough cushion to throw in a heal or two. If that’s not enough for you there’s also aurora. If I pair that with superbolide, guess what? I’m not at 1hp anymore.

Making a statement like “only use it at 20% hp” shows a very clear lack of understanding of the issue. Healers have an array of very powerful instant oGCDs at their disposal that make low HP drops like this inconsequential in most cases. The latency, healing and damage dynamics of the game are not well suited to support a skill that nullifies how these healing skills function. It has resulted in needlessly inefficient skill that is usually more trouble to use than its worth. This is the definition of a poorly designed skill.

[Valic]

Living dead has no impact of use. If you use it and you don’t trigger walking dead, you lose nothing and don’t create additional work for a healer and healers don’t lose heals.




Making a statement like “only use it at 20% hp” shows a very clear lack of understanding of the issue. Healers have an array of very powerful instant oGCDs at their disposal that make low HP drops like this inconsequential in most cases. The latency, healing and damage dynamics of the game are not well suited to support a skill that nullifies how these healing skills function. It has resulted in needlessly inefficient skill that is usually more trouble to use than its worth. This is the definition of a poorly designed skill.

"if you use it and don't trigger walking dead"

So... wasting a CD then?

As for the latter, your complaint is still in the wrong spot, using it at 20% and then the healer using benediction or hell, the fact they don't even need to use benediction fixes this problem. They can use a couple of regular heals because again.... the tank is invulnerable during this. Healers have powerful healing abilities, tanks have powerful tanking abilities. Stop whining about a non-issue with a skill and whine about the players you're getting instead. It's efficient enough that it works and still costs one ay or the other like the majority of tank level 50 skills. Seriously, get over it, it was MUCH worse in design at first with it being "reduces to 1 and can't go below 1". Pretty sure that was just a typo but be thankful it's not worse like that description would've implied.

[Kabooa]

Every argument about Superbolide's health drop being fine fails because Hallowed Ground exists.

The HP drop is only there so it can be different. There is no advantage to it, there is no nuance to it. It's just a weaker Hallowed Ground, that's already a weaker hallowed ground by virtue of Duration, so having it being weaker than Hallowed Ground with a health dip too makes no sense.

If the Gunbreaker had -anything- that would play off off this 1 HP state, such as an Ability that's fueled by -health loss-, it might have a leg to stand on.

But it doesn't.

The -hp drop can only work against you, never for you-.

But it could be worse. It could be Living Dead.

[ForteNightshade]

If you know how it works then you shouldn't have any issues then. 4Head. Al of your complaints are how morons use it, not ow the skill itself works. Again, it's not a high oppurtunity cost if you use it at a low hp value that would have you killed anyways. In the end of all of these minus Paladin, you're gonna be healing the tank regardless of them being unable to go beyond 1 hp, being invincible with 1 hp, or living deaded. So your complaints so far are invalid unless you realize it's down to the player, not the skill. The post above me gets it, most of the people in this thread get it, you're just whining about another unnecessary change.

Would a Gunbreaker using Superbolide at 20% just as Benediction went off, thereby entirely negating a three minute cooldown said Gunbreaker had no idea would be used, classify as "moronic"? Because that's the point they're making. In DF, you have no idea what your healing will do. Saying "well, they can just use more heals because you're invulnerable" misses the entire point. They were using Benediction so they didn't have to spam say Cure II.

[Valic]

Every argument about Superbolide's health drop being fine fails because Hallowed Ground exists.

The HP drop is only there so it can be different. There is no advantage to it, there is no nuance to it. It's just a weaker Hallowed Ground, that's already a weaker hallowed ground by virtue of Duration, so having it being weaker than Hallowed Ground with a health dip too makes no sense.

If the Gunbreaker had -anything- that would play off off this 1 HP state, such as an Ability that's fueled by -health loss-, it might have a leg to stand on.

But it doesn't.

The -hp drop can only work against you, never for you-.

But it could be worse. It could be Living Dead.

This is only half right. The reason the HP drop exists is for there to be a consequence to this skill. It's not meant to be an abused skill for invincibility. DRK has LD, WAR just simply can't go below 1 but still suffers incoming damage, GNB drops to 1 for invinciblity, and right now PLD's is just got a higher cooldown than all the others. The main issue is just like Yoshi-P said, PLD's hallowed ground is already too OP and he's afraid to do anything to it lest it infuriates players.

It doesn't need any synergy justlike how L and the others dont need any synergy because they're stand alone "save my butt" skills. The fact it drops to 1 is also a nice nod to how you would drop to 1 hp in FF8 games from a big attack like the final boss would do. Also it doesn't hurt to have low hp and get a heal t raise that LB bar just a bit better. So I wouldnt say it can only work against you, never for you". It's a small touch anyways I figure, but yeah. Every invulnerability should have some cost because.. again, invincible.

Would a Gunbreaker using Superbolide at 20% just as Benediction went off, thereby entirely negating a three minute cooldown said Gunbreaker had no idea would be used, classify as "moronic"? Because that's the point they're making. In DF, you have no idea what your healing will do. Saying "well, they can just use more heals because you're invulnerable" misses the entire point. They were using Benediction so they didn't have to spam say Cure II.

In that same question, if a dark knight uses living dead and the healer uses benediction just as they did, isn't that just as equally at fault? Just in DRK's case, they waste a cooldown on something that never reached the status of walking dead. It's less noticeable in their case too, say the DRK already got a benediction and they didn't know it, they pop LD with them somehow at low hp just a couple seconds after(idk maybe they walked into several aoe's or some nonsense), then the healer is without benediction and they're going to enter walking dead and die anyways.

The problem with that idea is that it is only noticeable because GNB takes the leap to drain its hp ahead of time instead of it being a "counter measure" like dark knight's. GNB at least will survive regardless, can even use aurora to help if it's off cd and there's no rule saying they must be healed to 100% full health either unless a TB is incoming.

Worst feeling is when a WAR uses holmgang and they don't even hit 1 hp. All of these cases present a "Wasted cooldown" where the healer ends up healing the tank anyways using a good heal cd. By the end of this, everyone's doing the same thing and the complaint doesn't matter because it just comes down to a smart player vs a dumb player.

[Wistfulwaffle]

Living dead has no impact of use. If you use it and you don’t trigger walking dead, you lose nothing and don’t create additional work for a healer and healers don’t lose heals.




Making a statement like “only use it at 20% hp” shows a very clear lack of understanding of the issue. Healers have an array of very powerful instant oGCDs at their disposal that make low HP drops like this inconsequential in most cases. The latency, healing and damage dynamics of the game are not well suited to support a skill that nullifies how these healing skills function. It has resulted in needlessly inefficient skill that is usually more trouble to use than its worth. This is the definition of a poorly designed skill.

Sounds like you’re pushing some agenda over an invisible problem linked to either bad micromanagement, bad players, or both. The 20% rule of thumb is to avoid latency issues and to stay alive. This is true for any invuln and not exactly rocket science. If anyone is popping superbolide with over 20% of their HP, they’re not playing the role correctly. Your definition is flawed and It sounds like you need to be more efficient.
Healers need to understand what kind of move is coming out or anticipate why a tank would use their invuln to effectively heal at the right time. This skill hasn’t nullified or changed anything for an experienced player.

[Wistfulwaffle]

Every argument about Superbolide's health drop being fine fails because Hallowed Ground exists.

The HP drop is only there so it can be different. There is no advantage to it, there is no nuance to it. It's just a weaker Hallowed Ground, that's already a weaker hallowed ground by virtue of Duration, so having it being weaker than Hallowed Ground with a health dip too makes no sense.

If the Gunbreaker had -anything- that would play off off this 1 HP state, such as an Ability that's fueled by -health loss-, it might have a leg to stand on.

But it doesn't.

The -hp drop can only work against you, never for you-.

But it could be worse. It could be Living Dead.

Hollowed ground is broken and not an accurate metric to judge other tank busters. It also has an absurdly high CD time, so using it twice in one instance is usually not an option. I’m not really understanding how the HP drop works against you if you’re using it in the correct circumstances. If you were a DRK or WAR you’re still dropping to 1 HP and taking damage as well. The outcome is the same. If you’re running savage or EX content, healers and tanks are both aware of major hits and certain mechanics that require invulnerability. This leaves dungeon runs which are a joke and shouldn’t require any major CDs to stay alive. Sounds like people are complaining just to complain.