The WoL, Fray, and Dark Knights, knowing what we know now. [ShB Spoilers]

[shinkin]

I think fray did have some sort of physical form, considering he is attacked and can heal you in duties, but the quest dialogue does imply that his outbursts are actually coming from you, which is kind of confusing

[MrThinker]

I think fray did have some sort of physical form, considering he is attacked and can heal you in duties, but the quest dialogue does imply that his outbursts are actually coming from you, which is kind of confusing

For the majority of the 30-50 Drk story, whether Fray was actually there or not is deliberately left vague and left to headcanon. The only time they are actually confirmed present in physical form is in the lvl50 quest, where they are possesing the real Fray's dead body and then drop ot to show their true form.

[HyoMinPark]

I found (and have already misplaced) a link to a translation of the Japanese DRK quests the other day. It's only the English version that puts Fray "all in your head" and speaking with your voice to others. He's visible and separate to you in the Japanese version - which makes a lot more sense for a few points, like Drillemont promising our 'friend' will get a proper burial, and later on the fact that Sidurgu and Rielle can interact with Myste.

Here are two links to Japanese translation of the level 45 quest (“Declaration of Blood”) and the level 50 quest (“Our Answer”). JP definitely does not insinuate that we are the only ones who can see Fray/Esteem, but that others could as well (the level 45 quest has one of the NPCs acknowledge Fray/Esteem as maybe someone that fought Leviathan with us, and the level 50 quest has NPCs making a direct reference to us “fighting with that madman”).

The JP version of these quests are definitely far more deeper than the English ones made them out to be (English is still deep and still good, but I much prefer the JP ones). As the translator said, Your Darkside/Fray/Esteem comes off as a very sorrowful character who is genuinely hurting—and that just resonated better with me.

Declaration of Blood
Our Answer

For the majority of the 30-50 Drk story, whether Fray was actually there or not is deliberately left vague and left to headcanon. The only time they are actually confirmed present in physical form is in the lvl50 quest, where they are possesing the real Fray's dead body and then drop ot to show their true form.

In the JP version, the level 45 quest openly acknowledges Fray’s/Esteem’s presence. So the interpretation/headcanon one seems to be an English localization thing. I’m not sure about French or German, though.

[Rannie]

Here are two links to Japanese translation of the level 45 quest (“Declaration of Blood”) and the level 50 quest (“Our Answer”). JP definitely does not insinuate that we are the only ones who can see Fray/Esteem, but that others could as well (the level 45 quest has one of the NPCs acknowledge Fray/Esteem as maybe someone that fought Leviathan with us, and the level 50 quest has NPCs making a direct reference to us “fighting with that madman”).

The JP version of these quests are definitely far more deeper than the English ones made them out to be (English is still deep and still good, but I much prefer the JP ones). As the translator said, Your Darkside/Fray/Esteem comes off as a very sorrowful character who is genuinely hurting—and that just resonated better with me.

Declaration of Blood
Our Answer



In the JP version, the level 45 quest openly acknowledges Fray’s/Esteem’s presence. So the interpretation/headcanon one seems to be an English localization thing. I’m not sure about French or German, though.

Omg reading the jp translations of the 45 quest makes me want to cry again... I'm scared now that if I read the 50 translation I WILL cry again like I did when I finished said quest and crying at work is not good...

[VirusChris]

God... I prefer the Japanese dialogue over the English version. Though I do like some of the things that Fray says in English, the Japanese versions feels more sorrowful with depth.

[Rosenstrauch]

Declaration of Blood
Our Answer

Well, I'm glad to know now that "Esteem" is just a product of the English localization. I hated that character from the start.

[ObsidianFire]

I mean... Fray is a character in both the English and Japanese localization. The same thing goes for Myste. Both of them are parts of your, the Wol's, consciousness and are part of how you deal with being the WoL in the Dark Knight quests. What is different is how the WoL and Fray relate to each other in the Japaneses localization vs the English localization.

I have to say that I am glad they changed how Fray talks in the English localization. In the Japanese localization, Fray wants something from you just as much as everyone else does; he's just a better emotional manipulator then most people and so happens to be a part of you. I found Japanses Fray as annoying and whinny as everyone else in the DRK quests and would have enjoyed the DRK quests a lot less if he hadn't been changed for the English version.

English Fray, meanwhile, is as annoyed with everyone asking things from you as you are. He comes off at the start being much more on your side, which makes the "betrayal" during the lvl 50 quest work a lot better. What English Fray wants is less something else from you and is more annoyed that you aren't doing things for yourself. It's a subtle difference, but it completely changes how I view the character. It doesn't hurt either that making fun of "fetch quests" is something the English Speaking Gaming community has been making fun of for decades either.

All that said, due to the nature of the DRK quests both interpretations of Fray work. Or rather, they don't work either. I know that for my character, the events of the DRK quests never happened because my character simply didn't have the kind of reaction to being the WoL that the DRK quests need to assume the WoL has to being the WoL. The DRK quests work great if you assume the WoL is bothered or having issues being the WoL. The plot of the DRK quests falls apart when your WoL doesn't fit their story.

[Edax]

God... I prefer the Japanese dialogue over the English version. Though I do like some of the things that Fray says in English, the Japanese versions feels more sorrowful with depth.

I admit, I kind of liked Frey's line "Everything up to now has been your story…" FFXIV spends very little time giving the WoL character development so the twist that this was our story the whole time was kind of neat.

[HyoMinPark]

Well, I'm glad to know now that "Esteem" is just a product of the English localization. I hated that character from the start.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. "Esteem" is still your character - they're just less edgy in the Japanese and more sorrowful/emotional. But they're still considered your "shade" or your "dark side". They are the part of you who, as they said, couldn't be a hero. Who just wants to be another adventurer.


As for the poster who found Japanese Fray annoying, I respectfully disagree. They wants you to realize that each time you selflessly help others, while it makes you a hero, it also costs you at the same time. They want you to accept that it's okay to not always be a stoic hero, and just smile and nod. They want you to acknowledge your own negative emotions, because ignoring them causes you suffering that steadily accumulates. Like a snowball effect. Simple psychology. I think it would fit any person, because everyone has those kinds of negative thoughts, regardless of how much they want to embrace "being good" or "being a hero". No one is that pure to not have the stray thoughts like the ones voiced about the Merchant in the 45 quest.

They're angry with others, but also angry with you for staying silent.

At least, that's the interpretation I got from it.

[Rosenstrauch]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. "Esteem" is still your character - they're just less edgy in the Japanese and more sorrowful/emotional. But they're still considered your "shade" or your "dark side". They are the part of you who, as they said, couldn't be a hero. Who just wants to be another adventurer..

I mean that I found Esteem's whole "crass egotistical edgelord who may or may not exist" deal to be so awful that it ruined the story line for me. I also didn't appreciate the game's attempt to portray my character as a psychopath via Fray shouting that merchant down over him being rightfully angry with me for soaking his goods in Qiqirn blood. Knowing that the Japanese version is nothing like that is a relief.