RDM's Patch Notes?

[Fynlar]

Well, it would affect your gameplay in a positive way if you were playing RDM properly.

I assure you I was. RDM is not difficult.

Dude, 15 minutes was the best estimate in a vaccuum.. You actually can't press LD consistently on CD (And I mean every 59.9 sec here) and each mana tic you lose make your next boosted mana-regen uptic delayed by 3 seconds.

Dude, I don't mean that it has to be your number 1 priority used absolutely every 60s on the dot. Just that you don't forget to keep using it, which I'm sure many people do if so many were having MP problems.

Also RDM was problem without using raises.

Maybe for you it was? Wasn't for me.

No you don't understand. You (and by extension everyone else who agrees with you) are wrong, because Fynlar didn't have this issue and puts feeling before fact. Don't try to convince him otherwise, it falls on deaf ears.

The people trying to insinuate that I'm advocating sitting there and doing nothing in order to not run out of MP surely aren't making a very good case for themselves.

It must be tough having to reach that badly in order to justify in your minds that someone might not be having the same problems at playing a job that you do.

[Enla]

You're right, it shouldn't be, and it wasn't. Having to throw out one raise has never killed me on RDM, just like it hasn't killed me on any healer.

Because you had to raise a bunch, yes?

Guess what, that'll still happen today even after these changes if you get a bad party like that.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it? Either that or you're a troll whose purposefully ignoring portions of people's posts. I'm undecided as to which right now.

I main healer. Even if I have to raise 7+ times I can always get my MP back to a point where I can resume DPS once people stop running around like headless chickens. Even on SCH which had MAJOR MP issues at the drop of 5.0 I could recover. My point, which you missed, is that recovering was impossible as RDM until these changes. At least if you didn't want to stop casting and be useless. We simply didn't make our MP back and for a DPS job to be so hamstrung by it's utility like that is unacceptable. If the utility of the job puts it into a spot where it can't enact it's main rotation then either things need to be tweaked or said utility needs to be removed entirely. For RDM to be so hamstrung by raising more than two people at the drop of the expansion it became a question of why we even had the ability in the first place.

[CorbinDallas]

I assure you I was. RDM is not difficult.

Dude, I don't mean that it has to be your number 1 priority used absolutely every 60s on the dot. Just that you don't forget to keep using it, which I'm sure many people do if so many were having MP problems.

Maybe for you it was? Wasn't for me.

The people trying to insinuate that I'm advocating sitting there and doing nothing in order to not run out of MP surely aren't making a very good case for themselves.

It must be tough having to reach that badly in order to justify in your minds that someone might not be having the same problems at playing a job that you do.

I never once said you personally have an issue with playing the job, I've just said that you're ridiculous for just hand waving what countless people have said over your personal feely anecdote. A thing you do all the time. I'm an open minded guy, if 20+ approached me and countered my argument with the same thing, I wouldn't be so quick to brush it aside.

[Fynlar]

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it?

That's something I've been questioning about this forum for ages now.

I main healer. Even if I have to raise 7+ times I can always get my MP back to a point where I can resume DPS once people stop running around like headless chickens.

Cool, good for you. Usually if I'm in the position where I've had to cast that many raises as a healer, I was left in a position I couldn't recover from and there would likely be more deaths / eventual wipe due to me not being able to cast anything else.

Yet, I'm not going to say that your experience couldn't have been true because Reasons, or that your cohealer must have been carrying you, or anything like that... like other people here seem to insist on doing about my own experiences.

I never once said you personally have an issue with playing the job

I never once said that you were one of those people. My comment was specifically regarding posts like #66 and #69, and several other ones in this thread insinuating that the only way I could not be having MP problems on the job is if I were playing the job like a moron.

It's like some people here think so highly of themselves and their gameplay that they can't fathom someone else not having a problem with something just because they had a problem with that same thing. Uhh, no. Get over yourselves.

I've just said that you're ridiculous for just hand waving what countless people have said over your personal feely anecdote. A thing you do all the time. I'm an open minded guy, but if 20+ approached me and countered my argument with the same thing, I wouldn't be so quick to brush it aside.

Again, when it's a matter of 20 people saying something can't be done and I've been doing it just fine, I'm still going to question those 20 people. In all likelihood, you'd do the same thing, so I doubt you think it's really as ridiculous as you proclaim it to be.

Again, it's much much harder to state that something cannot be done, because all it takes is one person doing it to call the claim into question.

[Saito_S]

I've been too busy to look at this thread again until today, and while I've read all the new posts I'm not going to comb through them and address every point of dispute that's been raised, but basically:

I never once said you personally have an issue with playing the job, I've just said that you're ridiculous for just hand waving what countless people have said over your personal feely anecdote. A thing you do all the time. I'm an open minded guy, if 20+ approached me and countered my argument with the same thing, I wouldn't be so quick to brush it aside.

...this.

Just that you don't forget to keep using it, which I'm sure many people do if so many were having MP problems.
...
The people trying to insinuate that I'm advocating sitting there and doing nothing in order to not run out of MP surely aren't making a very good case for themselves.

It must be tough having to reach that badly in order to justify in your minds that someone might not be having the same problems at playing a job that you do.

You're the one who's insinuating - no, not even insinuating, outright stating - that everyone who felt RDM had MP issues were just forgetting to use Lucid.

The problem that you don't seem to be getting is that you aren't just saying that whatever MP problems the class had just didn't bother you. As in, without denying that there could BE a problem, simply saying it wasn't one you felt impacted by. No one would have an issue with a stance like that.

Instead, you've very much been saying: "MP problems? No, it didn't have any MP problems, because I, personally, never had an issue with bottoming out as long as I used Lucid and didn't have to raise a million times. RDM's MP was objectively fine, and if you don't agree, you must not have been using Lucid properly."

While at the same time, when people "insinuate" that if you're maximizing uptime then you'd notice the MP issues, you take that as "therefore you, Fynlar, aren't maximizing uptime if you don't see these issues." You've taken great umbrage at this. Yet you see no irony in doing the same thing and making some pretty big assumptions about anyone who disagrees with YOUR assessment of the class. "Well based on my personal experience and mine alone, I didn't have MP issues, therefore the class doesn't have MP issues, you all must just be constantly playing with bads that need too much rezzing and/or not using Lucid properly."

In short: your self-awareness stat is laughably low.

EDIT: adding this in light of your post that went through right before mine did - you keep using "people saying something can't be done, but it's something I did" as a go-to phrase for this situation and it doesn't work at all. No one is saying anything is "impossible" or "can't be done".

"I'm a Red Mage and I didn't run out of MP!" Yeah great job, neither did I. I don't think I've completely bottomed out, as in ACTUALLY at 0 MP, unless I've died and been rezzed. As I said before, and plenty of others have said, simply NOTICING the MP issues didn't require actually bottoming out to a completely empty MP bar. If said issues didn't bother you, then hey sure fine. All your protestations against people making assumptions about your play and declaring that their experience must have been the only correct one come off as really obnoxious, as that is precisely what you've been doing.

[Ardox]

I assure you I was. RDM is not difficult.

Dude, I don't mean that it has to be your number 1 priority used absolutely every 60s on the dot. /snip

Dude. do you know how math works?

Lucid Dream up 100% of the time (on the dot) - Normal DPS Rotation = Deficit

No you telling me that you both didn't ran out of MP and didn't need LD on cooldown? You are the one making a very good case for yourself kiddo

[Fynlar]

You're the one who's insinuating - no, not even insinuating, outright stating - that everyone who felt RDM had MP issues were just forgetting to use Lucid.

Because every time I have run into an MP issue on RDM, it was always because I was flaking and forgetting to use this ability. Surprise, I'm not perfect. I can at least admit that this is my own error though, rather than trying to blame the game.

And given some of the arguments I've seen in this thread, such as how you shouldn't "have" to ride Lucid, that gives me the indication that... some people probably aren't riding Lucid (and are then complaining about having MP issues).

Dude. do you know how math works?

Lucid Dream up 100% of the time (on the dot) - Normal DPS Rotation = Deficit

Dude, do you know how reading works? I've been saying over and over, a defecit does not matter when fights either don't long enough for it to mean anything, or have forced downtime that allows for MP recovery anyway.

And no, I don't interrupt my casts/gcd just so I can make sure I'm using Lucid every 60s on the dot. That would be an example of poor play. I still wasn't so hard up for MP that the world ended if it meant using it every 61-65 seconds occasionally, because... I wasn't having consistent severe MP issues on RDM to begin with. Never was, not before SB2, and not after.

While at the same time, when people "insinuate" that if you're maximizing uptime then you'd notice the MP issues, you take that as "therefore you, Fynlar, aren't maximizing uptime if you don't see these issues." You've taken great umbrage at this.

Well yeah, because it's wrong.

Yet you see no irony in doing the same thing and making some pretty big assumptions about anyone who disagrees with YOUR assessment of the class. "Well based on my personal experience and mine alone, I didn't have MP issues, therefore the class doesn't have MP issues, you all must just be constantly playing with bads that need too much rezzing and/or not using Lucid properly."

The thing is, people do this all the time. Here's an example thread in the healer section. Not everyone in the thread is doing this, granted, but you won't have to look hard in said thread to find people attempting to invalidate/discredit the OP's experiences of having a difficult time healing since SB2 landed. Why? Because THEY didn't have any problems healing it (so therefore nobody else should be, right?)

And it all comes down to the same point I've been making -- as soon as someone experiences/shows something CAN be done, the claims of people who have a harder time doing the same thing (or outright insist that it can't be done) suddenly hold a lot less merit and are subject to a lot more scrutiny in the eyes of the populace (or apparently in this case, me). It is far more difficult to prove a negative.

[SendohJin]

Why does that alone necessitate a change, particularly when, again, every encounter either lasts short enough or has downtime phases to make it not matter?

And yes, some people are saying that having to ride Lucid was an "issue". The very first person that responded to me (post #10) said as much.

When the "vast majority" of people are saying something can't be done and the one person does it, yes, it does invalidate them. Just like it did in the other topic.

Saying RDM shouldn't have to use Lucid on cooldown does not mean anything "can't be done".

Your only counter to that is "but healers", when the balance is against SMN that doesn't have the same MP cost and BLM which has Umbral Ice.

Lucid is a Role Action shared by all 3 caster jobs, why is RDM the only one that had to use it on cooldown? why is that not an issue?

[Ardox]

Dude, do you know how reading works? I've been saying over and over, a defecit does not matter when fights either don't long enough for it to mean anything, or have forced downtime that allows for MP recovery anyway.

But fight with no downtime do happens. Take the new Titan: atm the fight is way over 10 minutes with a normal PUG. Yesterday we had to carry a very bad SAM and the fight went 22 minutes long even without wipe, the few moment you get running around is just not enough downtime to stay viable. Stop saying the deficit didn't matter: it did.

as soon as someone shows something CAN be done, the claims of people who have a harder time doing the same thing (or outright insist that it can't be done) suddenly hold a lot less merit in the eyes of the populace.

1) You didn't prove you could do it, you just affirm you can.
2) You don't disclose how you did it, you just say you did — Even if all objective mesure points toward it being not possible.
3) You brag about not reaching 0mp, which is not a feat in itself because playing the job poorly is a valid way to achieve the same result.

[Fynlar]

Lucid is a Role Action shared by all 3 caster jobs, why is RDM the only one that had to use it on cooldown? why is that not an issue?

Why IS it an issue? Are you seriously complaining about having to make use of part of your kit to alleviate one of your classes' potential problems? Do you think the top percentage DPS complain about having to pop their ogcd buffs to be able to hold that position?

I mean, BLM has Lucid too, but they never have MP issues. I have no idea if BLM gets any use whatsoever out of Lucid, but if they don't, they can just... not use it. If they would get use out of it, then they can use it. Either way it is no skin off my back. Why would it be an issue one way or the other for a class to regularly use the actions useful to them, and avoid the ones that aren't?

It's almost like... the classes aren't built equally and they might have different needs, or something. Whoaaaa

But fight with no downtime do happens. Take the new Titan: atm the fight is way over 10 minutes with a normal PUG. Yesterday we had to carry a very bad SAM and the fight went 22 minutes long even without wipe, the few moment you get running around is just not enough downtime to stay viable. Stop saying the deficit don't matter it does.

Never ran into MP issues on that fight either. I think the running around to handle mechs matters a lot more than you think it does, for one thing.

I swear some of you think MP usage on RDM is as if every enemy in the game was like fighting a SSS dummy. No mechanics, no dodging, no downtime ever. That's usually not how any fight that actually matters in this game goes.

3) You brag about not reaching 0mp, which is not a feat in itself because playing the job poorly is a valid way to achieve the same result.

I assure you it's not bragging. I have nothing to brag about.

You're just interpreting it as such because you think it shouldn't be possible. That isn't my fault (nor is it my problem to solve).