RDM's Patch Notes?

[Kurando]

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Have you done any Extreme content before these RDM changes? I'm asking you this because I can't see any log information for you or notice any Trial equipment on your character. If no then perhaps that is why you cannot understand why RDM could have issues, in those types of content the job is usually pushed as optimal at possible and that's when MP issues seriously start to show. It's not so bad in dungeons and normal trials but high end content it did struggle even more and if it wasn't for these adjustments, RDM would have been a dead weight in Eden Savage.

[Ardox]

Exactly, you're making guesses. These changes still aren't the same as the devs saying "you're not meant to have to use Lucid as part of your rotation"


Again, prove it.


I was never that desperate for MP on this job and I can't understand why others were unless they were having to babysit bads, which would screw anyone with a raise spell over, not just RDMs.

I mean, by your logic, they should just nix MP too along with TP (and maybe put Raises on a cooldown or something so that we can't just zombie everything) so that spellcasters don't have a resource to manage whereas the non-spellcasters get a free pass.

Not sure what you mean by that comment. Lucid doesn't even affect enmity anymore; literally its only purpose was for MP upkeep, so there's no reason to NOT use it unless you know you're going to die within the next few moments.

Man.. you are just salty

No job since the start of ARR needed to micro manage TP or MP for their standard rotation and with the new change it's proof enough.

You prouve that it was meant to be in the core rotation buddy

[Saito_S]

I was never that desperate for MP on this job and I can't understand why others were unless they were having to babysit bads, which would screw anyone with a raise spell over, not just RDMs.

I can't understand how someone who even plays RDM enough to get it to 80 could not notice the MP issue. It was about as hard to miss as the red in my hair. I could detect it when just doing bosses, and even big trash pulls, in the EX dungeons. Obviously I wasn't actually hitting 0 MP in those situations, but one doesn't need to personally experience a moment of being completely out of MP to detect this problem. Simply by noticing how quickly my MP was draining when maintaining as-close-to 100% DPS uptime as possible, with the MP costs before Tuesday's patch, vs. how fast my MP regens, factoring in what I'd get back from using Lucid on CD, and extrapolating that out to an actual HARD fight such as an EX trial or Savage raid... Hell even just in a normal raid! Sure those aren't much harder than a story trial, but they tend to be long, especially when they're brand-new. It wasn't hard to figure out that in such fights, RDM's MP might not be sustainable. To say nothing of if you have to toss in a raise or two or if you die while Lucid is not up.

I'm not saying I did the complete math in my head and knew the precise numbers, but it wasn't hard for me to be able to at least tell that something was off. And oh look - people who are better at the precision number-crunching and theory-crafting than I am DID actually math it out with more precision, and whaddya know, something WAS off. And the devs obviously agreed since they changed all these MP costs.

Your stance in this thread is bizarre, honestly. Your basically Principal Skinner'ing it up in here. "Am I out of touch? No, it's everyone else in this thread, the people who mathed it out and determined that RDM is MP-negative over a long fight, and the devs themselves, who are all wrong!"

[Nuna]

And as mentioned before in another thread: LD is the new Diversion. Apparently too hard for people to bother using it.

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[Esp]

I can't see any log information for you or notice any Trial equipment on your character.

I wouldn't try and look for any logs atm. If I remember correctly, in order to make the proper changes, most logs were wiped (Shadowbringers stuff only) in order to swap from pDPS to rDPS, so you won't be finding any there. For example, if you look myself up, you'll notice I have both the achievement and the weapon on my DNC, but my logs from when I beat the fight are all gone, even my recent ones from Innocence where my DNC got the accessories too..

Seems said person has also beaten Titania Ex already. Always check achievements first if they are open to the public, since someone may not have gotten the weapon for their specific job when it is beaten for the first time and may not have gone back for repeat runs. (No game, I don't want to level WAR, stop giving me Axes. ><)

As for the topic of this post, for sure RDM was having issues with MP, even without raises in very long fights with Lucid being used on cooldown in your rotation. I noticed it a few times where I would be in a deficit in MP after Lucid wore off.

It would have still taken you a while to bottom out, but it apparent Lucid could not keep up with the amount of MP RDM was burning through with Scorch being added and Lucid's lower potency return to match the new max MP.

[Fynlar]

Have you done any Extreme content before these RDM changes?

Yes

You prouve that it was meant to be in the core rotation buddy

I'm not the one making statements on how the ability was "intended" to be used. Burden of proof is on you, "buddy"

No job since the start of ARR needed to micro manage TP or MP for their standard rotation and with the new change it's proof enough.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

I know there's been times on NIN even without using AoE where I was hard up on TP if I ever forgot to use Invigorate, and I'm sure MNKs (among others) could have claimed the same at some points, but for the most part, if I *was* remembering to use Invigorate, I would be okay, or at least okay enough to the point where I usually wouldn't dry up before a fight was over (much like how I found RDM to be pre-5.05, just replace Invigorate with Lucid).

Ran myself out of TP on PLD numerous times too (before we even got any AoE ws) in a long enough fight, and PLD had no Invigorate to bail themselves out with. Requiescat/Holy Spirit did a lot to alleviate this.

Your stance in this thread is bizarre, honestly. Your basically Principal Skinner'ing it up in here. "Am I out of touch? No, it's everyone else in this thread, the people who mathed it out and determined that RDM is MP-negative over a long fight, and the devs themselves, who are all wrong!"

I'm not saying that over a long enough period of time, RDM couldn't possibly drain out their MP (again, barring when they die or have to res bot). I'm just saying that there aren't really any fights like that in the game, so it doesn't really matter. The vast majority of fights in the game either aren't that long or don't have 100% uptime (allowing for MP recovery). Usually both.

[Xatsh]

In the end it comes down to this. What are RDM's primary jobs in a endgame party?

It is to deal damage and to provide support for the party in terms of getting dead ppl up quickly to minimize downtime and dps loss.

Could RDM do that in a long EX/Savage fight with the old system? The answer is no they could not. This is why the mp was changed.

rdm's dps is low-mid tier, if they cannot raise or spot emergency heal while maintaining constant dps... They are a completely worthless party spot.

In ex innocence and titania yes I could do it without stopping dps when using LD on cooldown you are right, I would almost run out but LD usually came back up when I was around 1500-2500mp left... but I could not perform any of my other job responsibilities. Literally had to let the healers hard cast raise on dead ppl cause I did not have the mp to instant raise them.

Once the group is solid enough to not mess up mechanics yea does not matter... but at that point well you are better off switching to blm or smn anyways.

[Saito_S]

I'm not saying that over a long enough period of time, RDM couldn't possibly drain out their MP (again, barring when they die or have to res bot). I'm just saying that there aren't really any fights like that in the game, so it doesn't really matter. The vast majority of fights in the game either aren't that long or don't have 100% uptime (allowing for MP recovery). Usually both.

Actually bottoming out to zero MP doesn't have to be a remotely common occurrence in actual play for this to still be a design flaw that needed to be fixed. Just seeing that your MP is dropping like a rock and thinking, if this WERE a long fight, I'd really be screwed, isn't fun or engaging or challenging. It just sucks. There's no upside.

BLM goes through their MP like popcorn, and seeing your MP bar hit zero several times during a fight is expected, and that's FINE, because that's part of how the class is designed, with the whole fire/ice thing, and Flare taking all your MP. You're not "losing" your MP, you're spending it as part of your rotation, and then if you continue to perform properly, you get it back and can go right back to EXPLOSIONS within moments.

With RDM, your MP is going down simply by... playing your class correctly and doing your proper rotation? Even if you're not super likely to actually hit rock bottom, just knowing that by maximizing uptime, you're burning through your MP super fast even WITH Lucid use, and there's nothing you can do about it short of holding your DPS, no class gimmick that goes along with using your MP or way to recover, just kinda sucks. That's why it needed to be changed.

Re: "proving" Lucid's intended design one way or the other - no one here actually KNOWS the minds of the devs with any certainty, of course, but we can use a little common sense. They lowered RDM's MP costs across the board. Why would they do that instead of just saying "working as intended, please use Lucid more" if they DIDN'T intend Lucid to be something with a bit more flexibility, something you can effectively use at certain MP thresholds or hold as a contingency for untimely deaths? If they wanted us to just DEAL with RDM's MP burn by mashing Lucid whenever it's up and basically keeping it on constant CD, they wouldn't have made this change. They would have told us to suck it up.

[SendohJin]

I'm not the one making statements on how the ability was "intended" to be used. Burden of proof is on you, "buddy"

You just like to tell people what they have to do, which is like the same thing "buddy".

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people running into MP issues on RDM were as a result of not riding Lucid.

All I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be seen as a "problem" to have to ride your Lucid cooldown.

[Fynlar]

In the end it comes down to this. What are RDM's primary jobs in a endgame party?

It is to deal damage and to provide support for the party in terms of getting dead ppl up quickly to minimize downtime and dps loss.

Could RDM do that in a long EX/Savage fight with the old system? The answer is no they could not. This is why the mp was changed.

rdm's dps is low-mid tier, if they cannot raise or spot emergency heal while maintaining constant dps... They are a completely worthless party spot.

Pretending to go along with you for a bit on the low-mid tier DPS bit because I don't know (or care) about the real hierarchy.

If RDM is "worthless" unless the party is screwing up, that kinda says to me that maybe the job should be getting adjustments other than just mere MP cost reductions which don't actually affect its overall standing in the hierarchy, no? Which is pretty much my point in this thread all along; it's hard for me to be excited over them fixing something that IMO didn't need fixing, while avoiding the real "problem" the class has. (I'm putting massive sarcasm quotes around "problem" because from my point of view, once I've actually learned the fight well enough to not die I've had no discernable "problems" pulling my weight. Surely not the DPS king by any means, but well enough to get the job done in the content I actually bother to do, and certainly not "worthless" as claimed.)

Actually bottoming out to zero MP doesn't have to be a remotely common occurrence in actual play for this to still be a design flaw that needed to be fixed. Just seeing that your MP is dropping like a rock and thinking, if this WERE a long fight, I'd really be screwed, isn't fun or engaging or challenging. It just sucks. There's no upside.

Again, healers can sometimes run out of MP too, particularly if they are having to spam raises or they forget Lucid. That isn't a "design flaw", that's just the nature of MP usage. If your MP on RDM is "dropping like a rock", you... are having to spam raises or you're forgetting Lucid. Same deal.

Your hypotheticals of "if this WERE a long fight" don't matter; what matters is if there actually ARE any long fights.

Even if you're not super likely to actually hit rock bottom, just knowing that by maximizing uptime, you're burning through your MP super fast even WITH Lucid use,

That was never the case for me on RDM. Clearly I'm not the only one, or else this topic wouldn't have gotten made.

You just like to tell people what they have to do, which is like the same thing "buddy".

It really isn't, but okay.