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  1. #11
    Player
    Fynlar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2,991
    Character
    Fynlar Eira
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    that is a problem. no other job has to use Lucid on cooldown when nothing goes wrong.
    I have to use Lucid on cooldown on healers or else I eventually run dry on them too (unless I just stand around doing nothing inbetween heals, but we all know how frowned upon that is). Don't see why this is a "problem" or why RDM deserves special treatment here.

    It's making use of their kit, and it's just one of several ogcds that you should have learned to weave well before you even get Verraise.
    (1)
    Last edited by Fynlar; 07-31-2019 at 03:04 AM.

  2. #12
    Player
    Bonbori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    496
    Character
    Iunia Arcena
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Weaver Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Fynlar View Post
    Neither did I.


    Ruling out situations where the RDM died or multiple Verraises had to be used, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people running into MP issues on RDM were as a result of not riding Lucid.
    If you were mana-positive then you were not casting with close to 100% uptime. When played properly, RDM was unsustainable.
    (23)

  3. #13
    Player
    LunarEmerald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,851
    Character
    Lunar Emerald
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 90
    A fundamental problem with the previous MP values is that Red Mage is punished in dps heavily by the existence of verraise. Before they lowered the costs, Red Mage could hardly use verraise without bottoming out their MP. You could only use it 2-3 times in an entire fight before running into crippling MP issues.
    (2)

  4. #14
    Player
    Xatsh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    2,011
    Character
    Xatsh Vei
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    On long fights rdm would run out of mp eventually in they are maximizing casting uptime or had too much spellspeed. LD did not keep up.

    If you ever casted raise in the fight.... you 100% ran out of mp. Which decimated your dps output. Why you see so many rdms not raise ppl anymore when they die and they leave it to the healers to do.


    This change should alleviate this problem and allow rdms to get that insta raise out without completely screwing their dps overall. (Insta raise being one of the only real reason to use a rdm over any other caster)
    (1)

  5. #15
    Player
    MrKusakabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    399
    Character
    Zedek Kusakabe
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 92
    Even in some (involuntary) longer fights in Level 60 dungeons I noted a trend with my Mana going dry eventually (as if looking at your fuel gauge in your car and estimating how long you will be able to keep driving before refilling) if we don't get a break inbetween the fights or when my guys weren't that great (read as: Take ages to kill a boss), so I can only imagine how this has been in Level 70+ dungeons where full rotations are a thing....


    I mean, it's just a slight tweak that affects longer fights anyways, basically where the "buff"is supposed to unfold I guess. And I don't think it's the point of designing a class that is being punished for an engaging style of combat and/or for using Vercure/Verraise and thus basically rendering a part of our (Red Mage-)identity useless just because we have to save the mana...
    (1)
    Last edited by MrKusakabe; 07-31-2019 at 04:15 AM.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Fynlar View Post
    I have to use Lucid on cooldown on healers or else I eventually run dry on them too (unless I just stand around doing nothing inbetween heals, but we all know how frowned upon that is). Don't see why this is a "problem" or why RDM deserves special treatment here.

    It's making use of their kit, and it's just one of several ogcds that you should have learned to weave well before you even get Verraise.
    why would you try and balance RDM against healers?
    (8)

  7. #17
    Player
    Dogempire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,079
    Character
    Okami Amaterasuu
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Fynlar View Post
    Neither did I.


    Ruling out situations where the RDM died or multiple Verraises had to be used, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people running into MP issues on RDM were as a result of not riding Lucid.
    High cast speed can also cause MP issues, or rather, make them worse.
    (1)

    Watching forum drama be like

  8. #18
    Player
    Fynlar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2,991
    Character
    Fynlar Eira
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    If you were mana-positive then you were not casting with close to 100% uptime. When played properly, RDM was unsustainable.
    If you're trying to insinuate I wasn't riding gcd, you're wrong.

    Still had no problems, unless I had to babysit people who stood in bad. RDM sustained itself fine over any fight I've done in the game so long as I didn't forget about Lucid (which, again, I believe is the actual problem with most people who thought RDM had MP problems).

    It's not that I haven't been playing RDM since 5.0 either; RDM was literally my first 80 and what I brought through MSQ.

    why would you try and balance RDM against healers?
    Because one primary reason a RDM would encounter MP issues is raises, which healers also have?

    All I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be seen as a "problem" to have to ride your Lucid cooldown. It's what you *should* be doing anyway. Since they got rid of the hate dump aspect there is literally no other reason to hang onto it.

    High cast speed can also cause MP issues, or rather, make them worse.
    Well yeah, it's common knowledge that SPS isn't an ideal stat for RDMs.
    (1)
    Last edited by Fynlar; 07-31-2019 at 06:59 AM.

  9. #19
    Player
    Nyvara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    404
    Character
    Thurien Storme
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by LunarEmerald View Post
    A fundamental problem with the previous MP values is that Red Mage is punished in dps heavily by the existence of verraise. Before they lowered the costs, Red Mage could hardly use verraise without bottoming out their MP. You could only use it 2-3 times in an entire fight before running into crippling MP issues.
    This. We went from being rez mages to reznot mages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardox View Post
    People did the math and even executing your normal rotation perfectly and using LD on cooldown you would have max 15 minutes of fight before running dry. Each Raise was costing 4 minutes on that clock and if you'd die you couldn't count on LD to help you since even on CD it wasn't enough. Also, caster gear tends to have SkS on it would have compound the problem sooner or latter. RDM had MP issues. period. and that's why the potencies have been adjusted.

    LD is meant as a tool to help recover if you need to use VerRaises or VerCures or if you're getting raised yourself. It hasn't meant to be a mandatory part of the rotation
    That 15 min thing is something I ran into that's when I knew RDM was in Deep trouble. I'm glad to see the mana reductions!
    (1)
    Last edited by Nyvara; 07-31-2019 at 07:27 AM.

  10. #20
    Player
    Ardox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    270
    Character
    Kaleth Orebiter
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Fynlar View Post
    If you're trying to insinuate I wasn't riding gcd, you're wrong.

    Still had no problems, unless I had to babysit people who stood in bad. RDM sustained itself fine over any fight I've done in the game so long as I didn't forget about Lucid (which, again, I believe is the actual problem with most people who thought RDM had MP problems).

    It's not that I haven't been playing RDM since 5.0 either; RDM was literally my first 80 and what I brought through MSQ.

    Because one primary reason a RDM would encounter MP issues is raises, which healers also have?

    All I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be seen as a "problem" to have to ride your Lucid cooldown. It's what you *should* be doing anyway. Since they got rid of the hate dump aspect there is literally no other reason to hang onto it.

    Well yeah, it's common knowledge that SPS isn't an ideal stat for RDMs.
    People did the math and even executing your normal rotation perfectly and using LD on cooldown you would have max 15 minutes of fight before running dry. Each Raise was costing 4 minutes on that clock and if you'd die you couldn't count on LD to help you since even on CD it wasn't enough. Also, caster gear tends to have SkS on it so it would have compound the problem sooner or latter. RDM had MP issues. period. and that's why the potencies have been adjusted.

    LD is meant as a tool to help recover if you need to use VerRaises or VerCures or if you're getting raised yourself. It hasn't meant to be a mandatory part of the rotation
    (13)
    Last edited by Ardox; 07-31-2019 at 07:25 AM. Reason: enphasis and typo

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